Septimius, Julia and Caracalla take a trip to Mesopotamia...but left Geta home alone?! Damnatio memoriae??

[Ryro]

I bought this coin a while ago of the Severans and didn't think much about it. It was originally listed as having the three guys Setpy, Caracs and Geta, and being from Edessa, but you know that's Julia Domna on the reverse and it is one of a handful from Carrhae.

That said, even if this was from early on in Septimius reign when he was playing Clodius like a fiddle, why would they leave Geta off. The more sons you have the more secure your dynasty and thus your reign. Of all 7 on AC search but one has Geta on it and not JD. But is that by design or to appease Caracalla when he'd issues a damnatio memoriae on his kid brother after having him stabbed to death in their mother's arms. Could the crescent actaully be a well done countermark to cover brother?

 

 

Septimius Severus, with Julia Domna and Caracalla,

 Æ 20mm of Carrhae, Mesopotamia. AD 193-211. AYPH KA[...]KOΛ, laureate head of Septimius Severus to right, facing laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Caracalla to left / AYP KAP KOΛ MHT, draped bust of Julia Domna to right, with crescent set on stone before. BMC -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG Righetti -; Leu 9, 907; Heritage NYINC Signature Sale 3071, 32159. 3.66g, 20mm, 12h. An extremely rare dynastic issue.
Nearly very fine. Extremely rare. Purchased from SOL Numismatik June 2022

Looking at the other examples, though no face is completely mushed (like we see with some heavy handed CMs) one of the two on the obverse of each coin looks mushed and lacks detail. Mine is probably the best at not showing this. But in hand Septimius protrudes considerably compared to Caracalla on the left.

As you can see the space for the crescent isn't as big as that for Domna. That said, Caracalla appears smaller than SS as well.

Check out some others with mushy Caracalla:

This one appears to have Geta on the reverse! Could this have been a case of them accidentally damning Domna since she was usually place on the reverse left???

 

 

 

Maybe I am looking too closely at a poorly made rarity of a popular dynasty, but does anyone know one way or the other or have strong inclinations on whether this could be a case where all known coins of the type have been damned and Geta erased? I wonder what some of our hard core Severan fans might think? @dougsmit @maridvnvm and or all you Septimius collectors, thoughts are appreciated on this!

Edited January 13, 2023 by Ryro

[kapphnwn]

Actually poor old Geta must have been there.  As noted before I used to specialize in this coinage and had purchased a number of coins of the type posted by @Ryro This is an example of the type that features Geta Rather than Julia Domna PLEASE NOTE NIETHER OF THESE ARE MY COINS, The first coin is on of these, 

Carrhae Ae 20 193-211 AD Obv, Busts of Septimius Severus and Caracalla facing. Rv Bust of geta facing Crescent on globe 5.98 grms 20 mm Photo Obolos E Auction 17 Lot 550

 

At one time I had two or three of these but only 1 of the Julia Domna version.  I should note thar there is a variety of this type that only features Septimius Severus on the obverse. 

Far more common were these. 

Carrhae Ae 20 198-217 AD Obv Busts of Caracalla and Geta facing Rv Crescent and star. BMC 45 4.65grms 20 mm Photo V Auctions 230 Lot 50

Despite Geta being bare headed I always assumed that this particular series was minted during the joint reign. I came to this conclusion based on the thinner flans and slightly less weight. Again at one time I owned a contemporary counterfeit of this type, What made that coin particularly interesting is that the counterfeit copied a coin where the image of Geta was effaced  because of the Damnatio Memoriae . This has yet to be seen on any of the official coins struck at this mint.

[DLTcoins]

"Official" damnatio memoriae would involve physically removing from a finished coin the portrait and/ or name of the personality in question. None of the coins above show this sort of radical modification. My guess is that the coins with Domna predate the elevation of Geta, those with the three males date between the elevation of Geta and the death of Severus, and those with two young male busts (only) date between the death of Severus and the murder of Geta.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Prieure de Sion]

Geta has always been disadvantaged during the reign of Septimius Severus. Caracalla was clearly planned as the designated successor - Geta had to take a back seat. This can be seen in the titles, but also in coins. There were also during the lifetime of Severus enormous family crises and family disputes. Only later Geta was increased in rank - but also only nominally - really he had not much to say.

Also on coins there is therefore dominantly often only Caracalla with the emperor couple Julia and Severus. 

This is not a damnatio memoriae. But the priority was simply Severus, Julia, Caracalla and then came first nothing - and then Geta. 
 
 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Ryro]

16 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

Official damnatio memoriae would involve physically removing from a finished coin the portrait and/ or name of the personality in question. None of the coins above show this sort of radical modification. My guess is that the coins with Domna predate the elevation of Geta, those with the three males date between the elevation of Geta and the death of Severus, and those with two young male busts (only) date between the death of Severus and the murder of Geta.

 

Apologies if I wasn't clear, but that is the question. Was Geta removed via Countermarking on these coins? There is a spot he would have resided that is taken up be a crescent and that spot does appear to be, "removing from a finished coin the portrait and/ or name of the personality in question" as your "official" definition has it. 

As well, it appears @kapphnwn had a bit more understanding and experience in this area. But thanks for your thoughts. 

[Edessa]

Poor Harry! Oops, I mean Geta!

[Ryro]

1 hour ago, kapphnwn said:

Actually poor old Geta must have been there.  As noted before I used to specialize in this coinage and had purchased a number of coins of the type posted by @Ryro This is an example of the type that features Geta Rather than Julia Domna PLEASE NOTE NIETHER OF THESE ARE MY COINS, The first coin is on of these, 

Carrhae Ae 20 193-211 AD Obv, Busts of Septimius Severus and Caracalla facing. Rv Bust of geta facing Crescent on globe 5.98 grms 20 mm Photo Obolos E Auction 17 Lot 550

 

At one time I had two or three of these but only 1 of the Julia Domna version.  I should note thar there is a variety of this type that only features Septimius Severus on the obverse. 

Far more common were these. 

Carrhae Ae 20 198-217 AD Obv Busts of Caracalla and Geta facing Rv Crescent and star. BMC 45 4.65grms 20 mm Photo V Auctions 230 Lot 50

Despite Geta being bare headed I always assumed that this particular series was minted during the joint reign. I came to this conclusion based on the thinner flans and slightly less weight. Again at one time I owned a contemporary counterfeit of this type, What made that coin particularly interesting is that the counterfeit copied a coin where the image of Geta was effaced  because of the Damnatio Memoriae . This has yet to be seen on any of the official coins struck at this mint.

Wow! Thanks for sharing. And I can see why it was an area of interest for you, as it is for me. 

I would love to see a picture of the contemporary counterfeit if you still have it, please?

[DLTcoins]

Here's an example of memoriae damnatio from Stratonicaea in Caria, Geta's portrait literally chiseled away:

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=293686#

To my eye, the Carrhae coins above were designed for three portraits from the beginning, with Domna's portrait being replaced by Geta's upon his elevation. I don't see any evidence of the crescent being some sort of countermark. Note how after Severus' death, the crescent takes over the entire reverse. I think the crescent was part of the design from the get-go. That said, it's only my impression. I have no particular expertise with these Carrhae coins. 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by DLTcoins

[dougsmit]

I have no opinion on the coins shown above other than we should not be too quick to invent times/dates to fill a plan when it appears that they made several different variations.  Both sons were bearded in 211 when Septimius died if we believe the Rome mint coins.  The coins where Geta was removed were made long before they were modified.  I'll show the coins I always show when this comes up.  The one that bothers me most is where a countermark between SS and JD was dug out of the coin of Stratonicaea but many people say it was a c/m showing Caracalla.  I do not claim to know what it is but it is not IMO Caracalla.  I also show the Caracalla and Plautilla simply because it has a relatively clear countermark.  It is not certain what countermark was removed and, for that matter, many of the c/m's I've seen are poorly struck to the point of being uncertain.  Collectors of mint state coins don't tend to have any of these. 

My first coin of this series is worn and unclear but duplicates the position of the removed mark.  Who is the mark supposed to represent?  If Caracalla, why was it used on coins with his portrait in full size?  Could it be Plautianus?  I have no idea.

Of the coins with removed portraits, the boys are not always placed on the same positions. 

 

Septimius was most certainly alive when this Marcianopolis showed both boys.  Since Geta is wearing a laurel wreath, I assume it was issued when he became Augustus (209).  I also assume that Caracalla was not happy that day. 

 

I'm sure regular readers of my posts are tired of seeing this Alexandria tetradrachm of Domna from year 20 (LK) which began less than three months before Geta died.  I claim this is the only coin showing both boys that was issued after Septimius died and that neither knew of it being issued in advance.  Please show me any other coin from anywhere showing the two together that was certainly issued after Septimius died.  Caracalla never was all that pleased with Alexandria and I would not be surprised if some mint official died for releasing this coin unless it was specifically ordered by Domna.  I doubt many were made; many fewer survive (but no coins of this date and mint are common).  I also believe that this could be the first LK coin since other Domnas of that date use a later portrait  style while this matches the coins of the last years of Septimius' life.  I am unaware of how long it took for word of Septimius' death to reach Egypt.  All this is a mystery I do not expect to ever see explained satisfactorily.  Before making any hard theories, do note the number of coins listed in Emmett from Alexandria for any member of the family for years 18 through 20.  When there is no material, it is dangerous to venture guesses.  Does the figure on the right have his hand on his sword?  

[Spaniard]

@dougsmit..Could the c/m on your 3rd example be Macrinus?..

@Ryro...Really interesting thread! Great coins shown...

I have only one coin in my collection showing the Happy siblings together ...

Caracalla Æ 30mm of Amasia, Pontus. Dated CY 209 = AD 207. 30mm (13.87 gm)
Ob...AY KAI M AYP ANTΩNINOC, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust to right (seen from behind).
Rev.. AΔP CεY ANT AMACIAC [M]Hε ΩΠ ΠO, Caracalla and Geta standing vis-à-vis, clasping right hands; ET CΘ (date) in lower field. SNG von Aulock 35 var. (legends); Rec Gen 77 var. (star in reverse field). Roma Numismatics Limited, E-sale 78, lot 852 (same dies). Rare. VF.

[Marsyas Mike]

Interesting post, and coins.  Recently a Geta-Caracalla shaking hands coin came my way:

Septimius Severus  Æ 19 Heliopolis, Syria, Coele-Syria  (c. 209-211 A.D.) [IMP L SEPT SEV PERT?] AVG, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right / GET CAE  ANT | AV, Geta and Caracalla standing facing each other clasping hands, CH | L in field. (11.24 grams / 26 x 25 mm) eBay Nov. 2022      Lot @ $4.99 

Attribution:  Several variations of this type, with attributions all over the place in auctions, etc. Obverse auction is confusing, not enough left to be sure.  Sawaya is the main reference:  Triskeles Auctions die-match: Sawaya 136-9 (D34/R55). CNG, Inc. obv. die-match: Sawaya 147-54; Wildwinds: Lindgren III 1274

Die-Match Characteristics: Obv.: Fine portrait; AV at top. Rev.: CAE curves around; AV shifted to left in exergue.

Die-Match Obv. & Rev.:  Triskeles Auctions Sale 21; Lot 311; 29.09.2017 Ref.: Sawaya 136-9 (D34/R55).

Die-Match Obverse: CNG, Inc. Elec. Auction 325; Lot 436; 23.04.2014 Ref.:  Sawaya 147-54

 

 

 

[maridvnvm]

I wish that I had something sensible to contribute to this thread but I do not. I admit to having not even been aware of the types in the OP until reading this thread. Shame on me.