Recommendations on Crusader coins

[AussieCollector]

Dear all

As part of my plan for 2023, I intend to acquire a small set of crusader coins.

Ideally, this would include at least one coin from each of the original four crusader states, along with quasi crusader states like Armenia and Cyprus.

I will probably also purchase a Jerusalem Bezant as part of the collection. The total number of coins will be 10.

Can anyone recommend a dealer or auction house that either specialises in crusader coins or has plentiful amounts? I already suspect that the County of Edessa will be particularly difficult to obtain.

With thanks

AC

[JeandAcre]

Hi @AussieCollector, sorry, I can't recommend any specific dealers, but this thread, OP'd by @Nerosmyfavorite68, might be a start regarding what to look for.  

 

And for the early, neo- /quasi-Byzantine folles of Edessa, you might be pleasantly surprised!  Here's @Nerosmyfavorite68's thread about his first follis from Antioch, from the same period.   

Back to Edessa, if you don't need one as early as the future Baldwin II of Edessa (right, the county didn't last much longer, anyway), there are plenty on the market, especially if you look at European sites, whether retail or via Biddr and their ilk.  The price range is surprisingly low, only especially depending on the condition that you're willing to put up with.  I'd want to think that $200 US would land you an example that would be worth having.

Edited January 6, 2023 by JeandAcre

[AussieCollector]

Thanks for the response @JeandAcre! Very helpful.

Quick question, most sellers of the Tancred coin you refer to state it was minted in Antioch. Is that not correct? @Nerosmyfavorite68 can you shed any further light on the background of this coin?

[JeandAcre]

@AussieCollector, sorry for the initial vagueness, but in the contexts of Neo-Byzantine 'crusader' folles of Antioch and Edessa, I was referencing both polities.  The ones of Tancred are consistently, unambiguously of Antioch.  The comparable ones of Edessa are there to be found, online, and don't run to being dramatically more in price.

[seth77]

1. If you want to stick to just the Eastern Levant area -- Cilicia, Syria and the Holy Land (+Cyprus), you will have no trouble finding coinage from Cilician Armenia, Antioch and Tripoli, especially the trams of Levon and further 13th century Armenian silver and copper, the follii of early Crusader rule at Antioch, especially Tancred and Roger, and the 'helmet deniers' of Bohemond III and the copper pougeoise of Tripoli minted under Raymond III. For Edessa you'll need to allow some more time. These are usually available on ebay and biddr/sixbid/vcoins/ma-shops/etc. The coinage from Jerusalem proper, while not really rare, is not as often offered, so your best bet would be waiting for collections to be auctioned off (such as was the Malloy coll. or Erich Wäckerlin coll.). These events are not very frequent but when they do happen, you'll have the chance to add Jerusalem, scarce and rare Tripoli and Antioch issues, the baronial coinage of Sidon, Beirut, Tyre and perhaps also the local 'city petty currency' in lead. These collections are also the best way to bid on Cyprus coinage, especially if you want the early late 12th to 13th century kings.

2. If you also want to add the post-1204 Crusader domains in the Aegean and Greece, the regular billon deniers tournois of Achaea and Athens from ca. 1280-1323 are usually readily available on ebay/biddr/vcoins/ma-shops/etc. The rarer cities or periods will have to be looked for on longer term and/or bid on when collections get auctioned off. 'Latin' trachea is also widely available if you just want the normal types (A-C Constantinople and A-B 'Thessalonica'). The Archipelago under Latin lordships can be tricky and rare to very rare to acquire and the coins are usually in unsatisfactory condition.

3. Some consider the colonial coinage of Genoa to be 'Crusader coinage' and adding some of these colonies is very difficult, especially since some of these coinages like the coinage of Rhodos under Genoese 'signoria' is a. rather mundane-looking, b. scarce to rare and c. some of these coins need to be separated from the late Nicaean types that they seem to copy, an endeavor which seems to have been overlooked academically after Lunardi and partially Tzamalis.

Edited January 6, 2023 by seth77

[JeandAcre]

I can cheerfully second everything @seth77 said about Cilician Armenia and the deniers of Frankish Greece.  They're pretty ubiquitously thick on the ground.  

Serendipidously enough, this lot from Numismatik Naumann just showed up, from an email from Biddr.  --At least for other medieval stuff, I can recommend them unreservedly.

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/numismatiknaumann/browse?a=3141&l=3563267 

I for one was pleasantly surprised not only by the opening price, but the estimate.  And for the genre, the condition is better than average.

Edited January 6, 2023 by JeandAcre

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

I recently won these as part of a lot but I must admit they area bit outside of my wheelhouse

[seth77]

For Edessa, the more ugly a coin is, that is the more overstrikes it has of different types/rulers, the more you should expect to pay for it lol.

[JeandAcre]

Here's another dealer I can heartily recommend, with an upcoming auction on (for one) Biddr.

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/elkowicz/browse?a=3208&c=67836

[seth77]

I was kinda hoping that Fatimid small gold would go unnoticed lol.

 

8 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

I recently won these as part of a lot but I must admit they area bit outside of my wheelhouse

These are usual deniers tournois of Athens and Achaea:

1. Gui II de la Roche (up)
2. Isabella de Villehardouin (left)
3. Giovanni di Gravina or Robert de Tarento (needs better pics) (right)
4. possibly Charles d'Anjou (but needs better pics) (down)

[JeandAcre]

You're going to know this, but the good news is that he sells stuff like that on a pretty routine basis.  I got an 11th-c. Fatimid imitation, probably Lombard, from him.  Not for very much, either.

[Sulla80]

Here's one that might be fun to include:

Early Medieval & Islamic, Islamic, Ayyubids, Egypt, al-Kamil I Muhammad, AH 615-635 / AD 1218-1238, Dirham (Silver, 22 mm, 3.00 g, 10 h), citing the caliph al-Kamil I Muhammad, Dimashq, AH 618 = AD 1221/2. Balog, Ayyubids, 430.

He is said to have met for peaceful dialog with St. Francis of Assisi during the 5th crusade ~1219 AD. He negotiated a peace treaty in 1229 with Frederick II King of Sicily, ceding Jerusalem while retaining other rights and holy sites.

[AussieCollector]

Wow, thank you everyone for the responses! What an amazing forum this is.

Thanks @JeandAcre and @seth77 for the detailed information and useful links. I have signed up for biddr and have signed up to bid on the upcoming auction (hopefully I am approved in time). I'm not a particularly patient man, but it looks like I'm going to have to wait for some of the coins. Which is fine, as you have rightly pointed out, there are plenty of accessible coins to start with.

Speaking of which, here is the first crusader coin I bought on a whim 2 years ago:

Crusader States, Antioch (Principality)

Bohémond III AR Denier. AD 1163-1201.

Obverse: ✠ BOANVNDVS, bust to left, wearing helmet and chain mail armour; crescent to left, star to right

Reverse: ✠ ANTIOCHIA, cross pattée; crescent in second angle

References: Metcalf, Crusaders 1995, Class B, 369-71; CCS 65

Weight and diameter: 0.78g, 18mm

[JeandAcre]

5 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

Here's one that might be fun to include:

Early Medieval & Islamic, Islamic, Ayyubids, Egypt, al-Kamil I Muhammad, AH 615-635 / AD 1218-1238, Dirham (Silver, 22 mm, 3.00 g, 10 h), citing the caliph al-Kamil I Muhammad, Dimashq, AH 618 = AD 1221/2. Balog, Ayyubids, 430.

He is said to have met for peaceful dialog with St. Francis of Assisi during the 5th crusade ~1219 AD. He negotiated a peace treaty in 1229 with Frederick II King of Sicily, ceding Jerusalem while retaining other rights and holy sites.

@Sulla80, thank you for this --an amazing example.  Here's one of my Frankish imitations, dated to 1217 CE by the Yale or Harvard grad student (from memory) who sold it.  (Sorry, at the moment, I can't dig deep enough into the piles of books, etc. to find the documentation ...or the coin itself, although I can still see where it is.  Sheltering in place for a year and three months sort of altered the landscape of the apartment.)

But I really need your observations about St. Francis (one of God's own hippies), and his indirect influence on al-Kamil's subsequent, characteristically enlightened policies toward the Franks.  ...Thank you, regardless of how many of the other stories about St. Francis are apocryphal (making friends with the wolf --I Need that, true or not), Catholic theologians have characterized his meeting with al-Kamil as a diplomatic mission.  Al-Kamil's magnanimity toward this slightly (if familiarly) fanatical, unwashed Frank has to elicit admiration.

During the same interval, Jean de Brienne, King of Jerusalem /Acre by marriage, may or may not have met Francis in person, as al-Kamil did.  But Francis made a similar impression, if more on a personal than a political level.  Three primary sources assert that Jean ended his days as a full member of the Franciscan Order.  ...In light of his very literal lifetime of war, this has to be poignant.

Edited January 7, 2023 by JeandAcre

[Sulla80]

5 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

@Sulla80, thank you for this --an amazing example.  Here's one of my Frankish imitations, dated to 1217 CE by the Yale or Harvard grad student (from memory) who sold it.  (Sorry, at the moment, I can't dig deep enough into the piles of books, etc. to find the documentation ...or the coin itself, although I can still see where it is.  Sheltering in place for a year and three months sort of altered the landscape of the apartment.)

But I really need your observations about St. Francis (one of God's own hippies), and his indirect influence on al-Kamil's subsequent, characteristically enlightened policies toward the Franks.  ...Thank you, regardless of how many of the other stories about St. Francis are apocryphal (making friends with the wolf --I Need that, true or not), Catholic theologians have characterized his meeting with al-Kamil as a diplomatic mission.  Al-Kamil's magnanimity toward this slightly (if familiarly) fanatical, unwashed Frank has to elicit admiration.

During the same interval, Jean de Brienne, King of Jerusalem /Acre by marriage, may or may not have met Francis in person, as al-Kamil did.  But Francis made a similar impression, if more on a personal than a political level.  Three primary sources assert that Jean ended his days as a full member of the Franciscan Order.  ...In light of his very literal lifetime of war, this has to be poignant.

@JeandAcre I enjoyed your coins and comments - you can find some related coins and notes here:

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/crusader-dirhems-forbidden-by-the-pope

 

[JeandAcre]

Magnificent post, @Sulla80; Huge Thanks for the link!  I'm about to comment over there (ran into issues with the keyboard -this machine is dying of old age).

[AussieCollector]

Sooooo....

I wasn't expecting to acquire a Bezant for a while, but I had the opportunity to purchase this 1/4 Bezant at a price I couldn't pass up.

 

 

CRUSADERS OF JERUSALEM

Anonymous, ca. 1150-1187

¼ bezant

14mm, 1.00g

Description: derived from the ¼ dinar of the Fatimid ruler al-'Amir (1101-1130), type A-731, without mint or date

[rishi7887]

How much can one expect on selling a Bohemond 3 Antioch silver denier, NGC certified XF ?

[JeandAcre]

@rishi7887 sorry, but all you get from here is, who knows.  Decent examples are a glut on the market; like any number of other iconic medieval issues, they're as common as they are cool.  But for anything XF (unless you paid Way too much for the slab), that's well beyond my frame of reference.  If you wanted to include pics, I could tell you whether NGC was lying through their teeth about the condition.

Edited March 29 by JeandAcre

[Valentinian]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:50 PM, rishi7887 said:

How much can one expect on selling a Bohemond 3 Antioch silver denier, NGC certified XF ?

Take a look at this:

1200 pieces to be slabbed at NGC in November 2022. Plus, there are very many on the market now that are not from that hoard. I have seen at least a hundred sold at auction this calendar year alone.  I've been expecting the price to drop to very low--everyone who wants one and knows about auctions has had their chance to get one (or ten), but they still sell. 

[ela126]

@rishi7887 I’ve not determined where NGC draws the line, but the Bohemond III’s are graded on the 1-70 Sheldon scale, where an XF is a 45. For the commonality of the coin, a xf45 isn’t great, based on eBay values, I’d say that’s around an $75 coin. Prices go a bit steeper as the grading reaches 60… although we know those grades aren’t completely accurate.

i actually just sold my slabbed example and picked up 2x better raw examples with money to spare.

[JeandAcre]

Another good reason to give the whole culture of slabbing the respect it deserves.

 

[seth77]

It's probably safe to say some of the coins in that pile are Bohemond IV, some first reign, some second reign and maybe even some Bohemond V. Some Bohemond III have the scarcer knight head right from early in the majority of Bohemond III, some could even be from the minority of the prince while Raynald de Chatillon was prince-regent. A similar situation is with the deniers tournois of the 3 main mints of Frankish Greece, also very accessible and offered in large quantities at any given time. They are not all the same thing and I am certain that some collectors go after them searching for particularities that would indicate known issues of particular interest or new hypotheses regarding chronology and historical connections. Actually the sheer number of available coins begs the research for minute details such as the letter forms or whether the crescents that form the chainmail of the obverse knight are upwards or downwards. In a similar way this is how the Israeli researchers offered a rather solid chronology of the AMALRICVS deniers that starts with 1164/7 and goes up to c. 1220s.

Edited April 5 by seth77

[JeandAcre]

@seth77, is there a link, or anything else, on the Israeli research on the AMALRICVS deniers?  Compared to those, the coverage of the Bohemond issues is relatively extensive (granted, less than comprehensive), even in Malloy and Metcalf.

[Sulla80]

On 3/28/2024 at 10:50 PM, rishi7887 said:

How much can one expect on selling a Bohemond 3 Antioch silver denier, NGC certified XF ?

The good news is that you can find some real bargains (1/2 off) on EBay

(Caveat emptor)