A Confusing Ptolemaic Tetradrachm RY 7

[Sulla80]

Roman republican denarii are pretty easy to attribute - for most types, there are lots of them, and there's been a lot of research dedicated to them including the use of hoard evidence to refine dates.  Today it is not difficult to identify a date of issue and responsible moneyer.  The coin from Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Scipio

Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Scipio, 47-46 BC. AR Denarius, Rome

Obv: Q•METEL PIVS Laureate head of Jupiter to right

Rev: SCIPIO / IMP Elephant advancing right

Ref: Babelon (Caecilia) 47. Crawford 459/1. RBW 1601. Sydenham 1046

 

My coin of interest today is not quite as easy to attribute.  

 

the portrait on this coin interested me - it looked a bit different from others that I have seen and the portrait style reminded me of these Roman coins of in the name of Seleucid Philip I Philadelphos:

Syria, Seleucis and Pieria, Antiochia ad Orontem, Q. Caecilius Bassus, rebel governor, 46/5 BC, AR tetradrachm in the name of Philip I Philadelphos of Syria, recognizing the era of Julius Caesar, minted 46/5 BC, Year 4 of the Caesarean Era

The first problem: many rulers issued coins with a bust of Ptolemy I right on the obverse, and a reverse with an eagle standing left on thunderbolt. so the name Ptolemy Basileos (King) doesn't reveal much.

Option A The auctioneer labelled this coin as Cleopatra III and Ptolemy IX:

 

Option B The previous owner had considered the coin Ptolemy VIII

 

Option C Svoronos in his book on the subject published 1904-1908 (still a primary reference book over 100 years later) considered this coin Cleopatra VII with her son Caesarion, aka Ptolemy XV, son of Julius Caesar.

Auction listings can be helpful in sorting out attributions - and a quick search for "ptolemy tetradrachm Z" turns up this coin.  Instead of adding evidence for one of the above it adds another option:

 

Option D This coin from CNG is attributed to Ptolemy XII Neos Dyonysos father to Cleopatra VII.

The books from Catherine Lorber for Ptolemaic Coins (Coins of the Ptolemaic Empire or CPE) have not been published yet for the later kings. See the online reference:  https://numismatics.org/pco/

 

A check on wildwinds for a similar coin comes up empty:

Ptolemy XII is missing a coin dated IZ (year 7 coin) https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/egypt/ptolemy_XII/t.html

Under Cleopatra VII nothing relevant https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/egypt/cleopatra_VII/t.html

Under Ptolemy IX there is a reference to a year 7 coin : Svoronos 1668

Under Ptolemy VIII no similar coin or year 7

Option E This just adds another PTolemy to the realm of possibility: Ptolemy X

and under Ptolemy X no year 7 shows up.

 

So where does one go from here?  Is this Ptolemy VIII, IX, X, XII, XV, or still something else? Perhaps the Numisforum crowd can help.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sulla80

[maridvnvm]

I used to have one similar and took the attribution of Svoronos 1668

This is the dealer attribution

Ptolemaic Kingdom, Cleopatra III and Ptolemy X Soter

Obv:– Diademed head of Ptolemy I right wearing aegis
Rev:- PTOLEMAIOY BASILEOS, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, wings closed, L I (year 10 of Cleopatra's reign) left, PA right;
Minted in Paphos, B.C. 110
Reference:– Svoronos 1668, SNG Cop -, Noeske -,

14.258g, 24,1mm, 0o

After the death of Ptolemy VIII in 116 B.C. Cleopatra III ruled jointly with her mother Cleopatra II and her son Ptolemy IX. Cleopatra III expelled Ptolemy IX 110 B.C. and replaced him as co-regent with her second son Ptolemy X. Ptolemy IX regained the throne in 109 but was again replaced in 107 B.C. In 101 B.C., after 6 years of joint rule Ptolemy X had his mother Cleopatra III murdered.

Looking through other examples of Svoronos 1668 I see it attributed as Cleopatra III & Ptolemy IX.

[Sulla80]

11 minutes ago, maridvnvm said:

I used to have one similar and took the attribution of Svoronos 1668

This is the dealer attribution

Ptolemaic Kingdom, Cleopatra III and Ptolemy X Soter

Obv:– Diademed head of Ptolemy I right wearing aegis
Rev:- PTOLEMAIOY BASILEOS, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, wings closed, L I (year 10 of Cleopatra's reign) left, PA right;
Minted in Paphos, B.C. 110
Reference:– Svoronos 1668, SNG Cop -, Noeske -,

14.258g, 24,1mm, 0o

After the death of Ptolemy VIII in 116 B.C. Cleopatra III ruled jointly with her mother Cleopatra II and her son Ptolemy IX. Cleopatra III expelled Ptolemy IX 110 B.C. and replaced him as co-regent with her second son Ptolemy X. Ptolemy IX regained the throne in 109 but was again replaced in 107 B.C. In 101 B.C., after 6 years of joint rule Ptolemy X had his mother Cleopatra III murdered.

Looking through other examples of Svoronos 1668 I see it attributed as Cleopatra III & Ptolemy IX.

A nice coin, and another vote for Option A (Ptolemy IX) or Option E (Ptolemy X) I think the pointier/rounded chin of yours is a good match for Svoronos 1668 mine seems squarer and a bit more cartoonish and a good fit with the images for Svoronos 1854. This is a helpful add as 9/11 1854s in ACSearch are identified as Ptolemy XII Option D

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sulla80

[kevikens]

I wish I could help you on this. I have several of these coins but gods' honest truth I can't tell one Ptolemy from another, with one exception, the Gallic shield on the reverse which appears only on a Ptolemy II. The others? I just hope the person I bought these from knew what they were doing because I have used their attribution to label mine. Later I'll  post my Ptolemy tets and members can opine to their hearts content.

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

It seems weird that it is hard to differentiate between Ptolemaic tets while it is not so hard to differentiate between bronze drachms with the head of Zeus-Ammon.

[Sulla80]

3 hours ago, Ancient Coin Hunter said:

It seems weird that it is hard to differentiate between Ptolemaic tets while it is not so hard to differentiate between bronze drachms with the head of Zeus-Ammon.

I have to admit, I haven't found the bronzes trivial to differentiate - but there are some good online resources like this page from Daniel Wolf:

http://ptolemybronze.com/ptolemy_series.html

If there is an equivalent for the tetradrachms, I haven't found it yet....most likely Coins of the Ptolemaic Empire or CPE will eventually get there.

Here are two other favorites:

• Review of Ptolemaic Numismatics, 1996 to 2007; Catharine Lorber and Andrew Meadows; http://doi.org/2333.1/9s4mw84w
• Ta Nomismata tou Kratous ton Ptolemaion(Ptolemaic Coinage); Svoronoe; https://www.coin.com/images/dr/svoronos_book3.html

The Catalogue of Greek Coins: The Ptolemies, Kings of Egypt from the British Museum on @Ed Snible's site has some nice pictures and comes with a caveat:

BMC Ptolemies was made obsolete by Svoronos' 1904-8 work. Use with caution. http://snible.org/coins/bmc/#ptolemies

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sulla80

[robinjojo]

I agree that attributing Ptolemaic tetradrachms can be a challenge, especially the later pharaohs.  I think the OP coin is a tetradrachm of Ptolemy XII, the father of Cleopatra VII.  I found a match online with a coin listed on VCoins.

https://www.vcoins.com/it/stores/aegean_numismatics/1/product/egypt_ptolemy_xii_8050_bc_tetradrachm/640562/Default.aspx

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by robinjojo

[Broucheion]

5 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

 

Option D This coin from CNG is attributed to Ptolemy XII Neos Dyonysos father to Cleopatra VII.

Hi @Sulla80,

It's a coin of Ptolemy XII.

- Broucheion

[Sulla80]

6 minutes ago, Broucheion said:

Hi @Sulla80,

It's a coin of Ptolemy XII.

- Broucheion

Thanks @Broucheion, and @robinjojo this was my guess - but how do you know?

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sulla80

[robinjojo]

Basically by comparing obverse portrait styles with attributed examples.  My knowledge of these coins is strictly limited, especially when venturing beyond Ptolemy II for this silver coinage.  My knowledge base for the bronze coinage is nil. 

[Broucheion]

Hi @Sulla80

There are dies studies for the last years of Ptolemy VIII plus Ptolemy IX & X (See "Phaphos I" by Morkholm & Nicolaou), NOT available online.  There is no die study I know of for Ptolemy XII nor for Cleopatra VII. Also, I've seen older drafts of Lorber's vol II and I suspect her former employer CNG has as well.

- Broucheion

Edited December 24, 2022 by Broucheion
typo

[kevikens]

OK, I was able to get some pictures of my four Ptolemy tetradrachms. Sinced I can't tell much difference between them anyone viewing them who can tell me about any of them please do so. The one on the upper left was sold to me as a Ptolemy VI , year 2. The one at the top on the right probably is a Ptolemy II as the Gallic shield on the reverse only appears on his coins. Sear 7774 and the person who sold it to does know his coins well.. The two on the bottom are both supposed to be Ptolemy XII but how the sellers knew that beats me. As I said above, they all look the same to me. Please, anyone who knows these coins feel free to chime in.

[Sulla80]

17 hours ago, kevikens said:

OK, I was able to get some pictures of my four Ptolemy tetradrachms. Sinced I can't tell much difference between them anyone viewing them who can tell me about any of them please do so. The one on the upper left was sold to me as a Ptolemy VI , year 2. The one at the top on the right probably is a Ptolemy II as the Gallic shield on the reverse only appears on his coins. Sear 7774 and the person who sold it to does know his coins well.. The two on the bottom are both supposed to be Ptolemy XII but how the sellers knew that beats me. As I said above, they all look the same to me. Please, anyone who knows these coins feel free to chime in.

Here's how I would have attributed them - the first and last different than you had above:

Upper Left: Cleopatra III & Ptolemy IX Soter II (Lathyros). 116-107 BC. AR Tetradrachm. Paphos mint. Dated RY 2 (116/5 BC). Diademed head of Ptolemy I right, wearing aegis / ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΠΤΟΛEMAIOY, Eagle standing left on thunderbolt; LB (date) to left, ΠA to right. Svoronos 1660.

Upper Right: Yes, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285/4-246 BC), AR tetradrachm, Alexandria, ca. 275/4-272 BC; Diademed bust of Ptolemy I right / ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ-ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, ΣM monogram above Gallic shield in left field, AI monogram in right. Svoronos 552.

Lower Left: Ptolemy XII (80-51 BC), AR Tetradrachm, Paphos mint . AR Tetradrachm, year 29 (=52 BC). Diademed head right, wearing aegis / ΠTOΛEMAIOΥ BAΣIΛEΩΣ, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, wings closed, date IKΘ (year 29) and crown of Isis left, ΠA right. Svoronos 1839.

Lower Right: Cleopatra III and Ptolemy IX Soter II (Lathyros) AR Tetradrachm. Alexandria, dated RY 9 = 109/8 BC;  Diademed head of Ptolemy I to right, aegis around neck / ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΠΤΟΛEMAIOY, eagle standing to left on thunderbolt, LΘ (date) to left, ΠA to right. Svoronos 1670 (Ptolemy X);

Edited December 25, 2022 by Sulla80

[Sulla80]

8 hours ago, Broucheion said:

Hi @Sulla80

There are dies studies for the last years of Ptolemy VIII plus Ptolemy IX & X (See "Phaphos I" by Morkholm & Nicolaou), NOT available online.  There is no die study I know of for Ptolemy XII nor for Cleopatra VII. Also, I've seen older drafts of Lorber's vol II and I suspect her former employer CNG has as well.

- Broucheion

Thanks, @Broucheion!

[kevikens]

10 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

Here's how I would have attributed them - the first and last different than you had above:

Upper Left: Cleopatra III & Ptolemy IX Soter II (Lathyros). 116-107 BC. AR Tetradrachm. Paphos mint. Dated RY 2 (116/5 BC). Diademed head of Ptolemy I right, wearing aegis / ΒΑCΙΛΕΩΣ ΠΤΟΛEMAIOY, Eagle standing left on thunderbolt; LB (date) to left, ΠA to right. Svoronos 1660.

Upper Right: Yes, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285/4-246 BC), AR tetradrachm, Alexandria, ca. 275/4-272 BC; Diademed bust of Ptolemy I right / ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ-ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, ΣM monogram above Gallic shield in left field, AI monogram in right. Svoronos 552.

Lower Left: Ptolemy XII (80-51 BC), AR Tetradrachm, Paphos mint . AR Tetradrachm, year 29 (=52 BC). Diademed head right, wearing aegis / ΠTOΛEMAIOΥ BAΣIΛEΩΣ, eagle standing left on thunderbolt, wings closed, date IKΘ (year 29) and crown of Isis left, ΠA right. Svoronos 1839.

Lower Right: Cleopatra III and Ptolemy IX Soter II (Lathyros) AR Tetradrachm. Alexandria, dated RY 9 = 109/8 BC;  Diademed head of Ptolemy I to right, aegis around neck / ΒΑCΙΛΕΩΣ ΠΤΟΛEMAIOY, eagle standing to left on thunderbolt, LΘ (date) to left, ΠA to right. Svoronos 1670 (Ptolemy X);

Thanks. I'll take yours as a proper attribution and change the tags. How you can do that amazes me. All I see is A Ptolemy the Something.