Ancient coins intercepted in Chicago returned to Greece.

[JayAg47]

Here we go again!

 

[sand]

LOL! That's all I have to say.

[kirispupis]

From another article, it's mentioned that the coins were shipped from Austria and there was speculation they were purchased at auction.

Could these have been purchased from Naumann? The only coin I can see clearly is the First Meris tet. Naumann has been selling many of those lately, though this doesn't look like any from their November sale (though due to politics it was probably confiscated some time ago).

Perhaps there's more information that's being withheld, but right now this just looks like an overzealous customs person. If that's the case, I feel bad for the buyer.

[arnoldoe]

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6216410

the criminal masterminds responsible got the big silver Tetradrachm for 350 Euros in 2019 ( paying well above the 200 Euro estimate)

Edited December 22, 2022 by arnoldoe

[DLTcoins]

As I understand the rules, the small-denomination coins would require either Greek export certification or paperwork demonstrating that the coins were in private hands prior to the Greek mou. Larger coins, such as the tetradrachm, would be exempt however. 

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20221221/robbing-from-the-cultural-heritage-of-a-nation-feds-return-ancient-greek-coins-seized-at-ohare

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/11/22/2021-25384/extension-and-amendment-of-import-restrictions-imposed-on-archaeological-and-ethnological-material

Edited December 22, 2022 by DLTcoins

[kirispupis]

59 minutes ago, arnoldoe said:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6216410

the criminal masterminds responsible got the big silver Tetradrachm for 350 Euros in 2019 ( paying well above the 200 Euro estimate)

That's about in the range this quality has been going for lately. Good sleuthing to find the coin and I guess it's not surprising that it's been in limbo for three years.

44 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

As I understand the rules, the small-denomination coins would require either Greek export certification or paperwork demonstrating that the coins were in private hands prior to the Greek mou. Larger coins, such as the tetradrachm, would be exempt however. 

My understanding is it applies to all Greek coins that cannot be proven to have been exported from Greece before the US signed an MOU with them in 2011. Here's one article.

I guess what this teaches me is to only buy coins from dealers that fill out the necessary paperwork (Roma, Leu, and Nomos seem to do a good job here).

Edited December 22, 2022 by kirispupis

[DLTcoins]

12 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

That's about in the range this quality has been going for lately. Good sleuthing to find the coin and I guess it's not surprising that it's been in limbo for three years.

My understanding is it applies to all Greek coins that cannot be proven to have been exported from Greece before the US signed an MOU with them in 2011. Here's one article.

I guess what this teaches me is to only buy coins from dealers that fill out the necessary paperwork (Roma, Leu, and Nomos seem to do a good job here), or order less than $2k in coins to skip the check.

The 2nd link in my previous post is the actual text of the memorandum. It applies to certain (but not all) classes of coins. I'm not certain whether the confiscated tetradrachm would fall under part b or c. Classic owl tetradrachms and Alexander-type tetradrachms, for example, are not included because of their wide circulation. The applicable portion is as follows:

"b. Greek Silver Coins—This category includes the small denomination coins of the city-states of Aegina, Athens, and Corinth, and the Kingdom of Macedonia under Philip II and Alexander the Great. Such coins weigh less than approximately 10 grams and are known as obols, diobols, triobols, hemidrachms, and drachms. Also included are all denominations of coins struck by the other city-states, leagues, and kingdoms that operated in the territory of the modern Greek state (including the ancient territories of the Peloponnese, Central Greece, Thessaly, Epirus, Crete, and those parts of the territories of ancient Macedonia, Thrace and the Aegean islands that lie within the boundaries of the modern Greek state). Approximate date: 6th century B.C. to late 1st century B.C.

c. Roman Coins Struck in Greece —In silver and bronze, struck at Roman and Roman provincial mints that operated in the territory of the modern Greek state (including the ancient territories of the Peloponnese, Central Greece, Thessaly, Epirus, Crete, and those parts of the territories of ancient Macedonia, Thrace and the Aegean islands that lie within the boundaries of the modern Greek state). Approximate date: late 2nd century B.C. to 3rd century A.D."

Edited December 22, 2022 by DLTcoins

[kirispupis]

3 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

The 2nd link in my previous post is the actual text of the memorandum. It applies to certain (but not all) classes of coins. The applicable portion is as follows. I'm not certain whether the tetradrachm would fall under part b or c.

"b. Greek Silver Coins—This category includes the small denomination coins of the city-states of Aegina, Athens, and Corinth, and the Kingdom of Macedonia under Philip II and Alexander the Great. Such coins weigh less than approximately 10 grams and are known as obols, diobols, triobols, hemidrachms, and drachms. Also included are all denominations of coins struck by the other city-states, leagues, and kingdoms that operated in the territory of the modern Greek state (including the ancient territories of the Peloponnese, Central Greece, Thessaly, Epirus, Crete, and those parts of the territories of ancient Macedonia, Thrace and the Aegean islands that lie within the boundaries of the modern Greek state). Approximate date: 6th century B.C. to late 1st century B.C.

c. Roman Coins Struck in Greece —In silver and bronze, struck at Roman and Roman provincial mints that operated in the territory of the modern Greek state (including the ancient territories of the Peloponnese, Central Greece, Thessaly, Epirus, Crete, and those parts of the territories of ancient Macedonia, Thrace and the Aegean islands that lie within the boundaries of the modern Greek state). Approximate date: late 2nd century B.C. to 3rd century A.D."

I believe it would fall under b) since this wasn't a Roman provincial but a Macedonian coin issued under Roman occupation. 

I read b) to include all silver coins. The second sentence is just clarifying that this means the little coins too.

Interestingly, the memorandum doesn't include gold coins. So, those are okay?

Of course, much of Epiros was in modern day Albania. So, if the US signs an MOU with them, who gets those coins? Similarly, much of Thrace is in Bulgaria, not Greece.

[Glebe]

Is the Macedonian tet here a Greek coin or a Roman coin for the purposes of the import rules?

If the former then it seems too big to be caught by the rules, which specify silver coins under 10 gm.

Very confusing.

 

[Finn235]

Someone should tell them that the Macedon tet belongs to Macedonia, not Greece. Says so right on the coin.

[DLTcoins]

9 hours ago, kirispupis said:

 

I read b) to include all silver coins. The second sentence is just clarifying that this means the little coins too.

Interestingly, the memorandum doesn't include gold coins. So, those are okay?

No, for the city-states of Aegina, Athens and Corinth, only small silver coins are included. The same is true for the Kingdom of Macedon under Philip II and Alex III. Large silver coins of these states, which circulated widely outside Greece, are not covered. For the remaining polities, operating wholly or partly within the borders of modern Greece, all silver coins are included.

I believe that gold is excluded for the same reason as the four classes of large silver.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by DLTcoins

[kirispupis]

11 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

No, for the city-states of Aegina, Athens and Corinth, only small silver coins are included. The same is true for the Kingdom of Macedon under Philip II and Alex III. Large silver coins of these states, which circulated widely outside Greece, are not covered. For the remaining polities, operating wholly or partly within the borders of modern Greece, all silver coins are included.

I believe that gold is excluded for the same reason as the four classes of large silver.

 

I see. Interesting. I guess the First Meris tet is included here, since only Macedonian tets under Philip II and Alexander III are exempt. Of course, this puts most Alexander tets in a grey area, since the text states the Kingdom of Macedonia under Philip II and Alexander the Great but, as we all know, most of the coins in his name were minted after his death.

I'm not sure about the veracity of the story, but there's a Greek guy who owns a restaurant we frequent. Most of his family still lives there and he travels back every year (and is in fact there now). When I mentioned I collect ancient Greek coins and showed him a few pictures, he said people find them all the time where he's from (somewhere not far from Pella). He said most people don't care about them because they can't be exported and so the people he knows mainly turn them into decorations. You wonder what amazing finds they would have if they adopted similar laws as the UK.