ID: Vespasianus or Titus - thats the question

[Prieure de Sion]

I think I am not wrong - hope so. I have a Titus as Caesar Denarius - labeled from NGC as Vespasianus RIC 937.

 

 

But at RIC 937 is the legend : IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG with reverse COS VIII !

And with that coin - I see a T at the beginning - and at the reverse a COS VI (and not COS VIII).

 

 

So I would say thats a RIC 948 - Titus as Caesar under his father Vespasianus.

RIC 948 was at obverse T CAESAR IMP VESPASIANVS and reverse with COS VI. Anyway I find no Vespasianus & Mars Coin with COS VI at the reverse - I think I am not wrong that it was an Titus?!?

Davoid Atherton: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=241&pid=34361#top_display_media 

Online OCRE: https://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.2_1(2).ves.948 

 

If you have time - master of Flavians 😉 - @David Atherton, can you please check this? Thanks!

 

 

 

[Prieure de Sion]

I get a tip - that its possible no failure of NGC ... sometimes they take as label-name the "Mint-Master" or Name of the emperor who issued the coin - not sure every time what you see at the obverse or reverse at the coin.

[Steppenfool]

I agree with your conclusions and I think the portrait looks too young to be Vespasian and lacks his signature jowl as well.

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I think I am not wrong - hope so. I have a Titus as Caesar Denarius - labeled from NGC as Vespasianus RIC 937.

 

 

But at RIC 937 is the legend : IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG with reverse COS VIII !

And with that coin - I see a T at the beginning - and at the reverse a COS VI (and not COS VIII).

 

 

So I would say thats a RIC 948 - Titus as Caesar under his father Vespasianus.

RIC 948 was at obverse T CAESAR IMP VESPASIANVS and reverse with COS VI. Anyway I find no Vespasianus & Mars Coin with COS VI at the reverse - I think I am not wrong that it was an Titus?!?

Davoid Atherton: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=241&pid=34361#top_display_media 

Online OCRE: https://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.2_1(2).ves.948 

 

If you have time - master of Flavians 😉 - @David Atherton, can you please check this? Thanks!

 

 

 

P. de Sion, I don't pretend to have the expertise on Flavian partiture that David does, however, the portrait on your denarius looks like Titus to me 🤨. Pictured below is your denarius & a tetradrachm of Titus from my collection struck at the Caesarea Maritima mint, where Titus was stationed, & the portraits look very close 😏. The tip of the nose on my coin has some die rust that exaggerates his nose, that's the major difference.

Another coin for comparison is a photo I found in my archives of a stunning sestertius of Titus struck at the Rome mint

 

[Jay GT4]

The dealer had it listed as Vespasian, but I pointed out the mistake to them last week and they promptly changed it.

[Prieure de Sion]

8 minutes ago, Jay GT4 said:

The dealer had it listed as Vespasian, but I pointed out the mistake to them last week and they promptly changed it.

I am the dealer 😉 … you write me. And thanks about the email. Sometimes with to many coins you don’t see all signs - and I don’t see the T at beginning. So after your posting I check this and change it promptly. 

But know the coin sold - and the customer write - that’s a Vespasian! And so I think - no no. You check this, i check this… you and I get wrong? 
 

So that’s the reason I ask here again. It’s possible that you and I wrong? But I think no that’s a Titus and I sold it as Titus. 

But for my customers I will better double check this - I dont want make a mistake …

🙂 

[CPK]

It's Titus - the "T" at the beginning of the obverse inscription is a dead giveaway. Also the portrait seems to favor Titus more than Vespasian.

[Topcat7]

Perhaps the customer is going by the legend on the obverse "VESPASIANVS" and reading into that, that the portrait is Vespasian.

'Titus', I agree.

[Jay GT4]

Ah, I didn't realize that was you!

Yes it is 100% Titus, not only because of the "T" but also because the reverse, COS VI.

You can't always rely on the portrait alone, but in this case the portrait is clearly Titus.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Jay GT4

[John Conduitt]

4 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I get a tip - that its possible no failure of NGC ... sometimes they take as label-name the "Mint-Master" or Name of the emperor who issued the coin - not sure every time what you see at the obverse or reverse at the coin.

This is the problem. I don't see them call it RIC 937, but it's still a failure of NGC. RIC II, Part 1 is 'Vespasian 948' with 'Head of Titus'. It's not right to label it Vespasian with no mention of Titus, not least when you don't mention RIC.

[Prieure de Sion]

6 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

This is the problem. I don't see them call it RIC 937, but it's still a failure of NGC. RIC II, Part 1 is 'Vespasian 948' with 'Head of Titus'. It's not right to label it Vespasian with no mention of Titus, not least when you don't mention RIC.

Yes… I think the problem is not the label Vespasian - because the coin was issued from Vespasian. I think they forget in the description under the label - that portrait at obverse is Titus. 

I see sometimes - as example - NGC Slabs labeled as Gordianus III … and under this headline the description - head of tranquillina. 
 

The headline label Vespasian at my NGC Slab is not complete false - if they describe the obverse with Titus head too. 

[David Atherton]

Late to the party here, but as others have already pointed out most definitely Titus! RIC 948 struck under Vespasian. 

Like many folks, NGC can sometimes mix up Vespasian with Titus Caesar. 

[ominus1]

...the T's have it....portrait Titus minted under Vespasian i have two denarii as such from the years 74 and 76

[Marsyas Mike]

I recently posted this elsewhere, but since it is a Vespasian/Titus confusion situation (in a slab), here it is again:

Normally I don't buy slabs because I like thumbing the actual coins, and also because I can't afford slabbed coins in general.   Since it was $30 (and free shipping!) I thought it was worth it, despite the low grade (ANACS says Good 6 - I dispute this - I think it is at least a Good 6.2! 😉😞

Here is a close-up with my enhancements showing the T and the rays:

Titus Æ Dupondius (c. 79 or 80-81 A.D.) Rome Mint   IMP T CAES VESP AVG P M TR P CO[S VIII], radiate head right / [CERES AVGVST] S C, Ceres standing left, holding corn-ears and torch RIC 67 or 189 (see notes). (Slabbed ? grams / 26 mm) eBay Feb. 2022    $30.00 BIN FS

Attribution Note:  ANACS slab No. 7206889 erroneously described as Vespasian as.  Obverse legend obscure at end, the two possibilities for this type are: 

RIC 67:  COS VII (79 A.D.)

RIC 189:  COS VIII