Enormous Hoard Found in Scotland

[DLTcoins]

An enormous hoard of more than 8,400 medieval silver coins has been unearthed in Scotland. Many of the coins are English pennies of Edward I and Edward II.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/national/more-than-8000-silver-coins-discovered-in-scottish-field-3926618

Edited November 22, 2022 by DLTcoins

[panzerman]

With my luck, I have never found anything/ but neither have the Lagina Brothers on Oak Island🙄

[John Conduitt]

Nice find, although it's a pity they're all Edward I and II, and not Robert the Bruce. Still, hopefully the Edward IIs are in good condition, as those are hard to find.

[JeandAcre]

Amazing.  It would be interesting to find out whether Galloway was under English control at some early interval in both Edward II and Robert the Bruce's reigns.  That might go some distance toward explaining the absence of Bruce's coins.  ...Otherwise, you could also expect to find some of Alexander III.  ...When did Robert begin his own coinage?

[JeandAcre]

Belated thanks to @John Conduitt, for raising the issue (pun intended) of The Bruce's coinage.  In partial answer to my own question (following an after-work nap), this is what the 2015 Spink Coins of Scotland, Ireland and the Islands has to say about Robert's issues.  Starting with the kind of historical context which is likely to be redundant to any of you who's paying attention.

After Robert was "crowned king at Scone in 1306 [Edward II was crowned the following year....], Edinburgh was not recaptured by the Scots until 1313, the year before victory over Edward at Bannockburn.  [Where two of my English ancestors, a knight banneret and an earl, were taken prisoner and killed, respectively.  Just starting with the massacre at Berwick, it's kind of like, poetic justice, anyone?]  Hoard evidence would seem to indicate that there were no coins issued until shortly before 1320 and may have been connected with the recovery of Berwick."  (Introduction to Robert Bruce, p. 22.)

(Another edit:)  Here's my not untypical penny of Alexander III, demonstrating how long his coins were in circulation.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by JeandAcre

[UkrainiiVityaz]

It is believed by many researchers that approximately 50 million pennies were minted by Scottish mints during the reign of Alexander III(1249-1286), his coinage was far more prolific than any other reigns because of the growth of trade with Europe.  While it is likely there are Scottish minted coins in the above hoard, English pennies would have come north with the occupying forces from the armies of Edward I(1272-1307) and Edward II(1307-1327) and would have been preferred by the English and their Scottish subordinates.

 

As mentioned previously, Scots coins in general from this reign are common - but some mints are incredibly rare - pennies with 28 points in the stars on the reverse are from a very small mintage from a small locale that has never been identified

.

This penny has 22 points and is conjectured to have been minted in St. Andrews.

 

 

This is an Edward I penny minted in Canterbury, from the first coinage that closely resembled Henry III's coinage.  This coin was part of the Colchester Hoard of 1969.

 

 

 

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, UkrainiiVityaz said:

It is believed by many researchers that approximately 50 million pennies were minted by Scottish mints during the reign of Alexander III(1249-1286), his coinage was far more prolific than any other reigns because of the growth of trade with Europe.  While it is likely there are Scottish minted coins in the above hoard, English pennies would have come north with the occupying forces from the armies of Edward I(1272-1307) and Edward II(1307-1327) and would have been preferred by the English and their Scottish subordinates.

 

As mentioned previously, Scots coins in general from this reign are common - but some mints are incredibly rare - pennies with 28 points in the stars on the reverse are from a very small mintage from a small locale that has never been identified

.

This penny has 22 points and is conjectured to have been minted in St. Andrews.

 

 

This is an Edward I penny minted in Canterbury, from the first coinage that closely resembled Henry III's coinage.  This coin was part of the Colchester Hoard of 1969.

I know that after 1367, Scottish pennies were produced at a lower weight, so English coins would've been preferable then. But before then, I don't know why they would've been preferred. Perhaps it's because the Europeans were producing lots of inferior imitations and so anything that wasn't English wasn't trusted.

I have one of those Edward I/Henry III pennies from the Colchester Hoard (which are usually terrible). Rather than it resembling Henry III's coins, it actually looks like an Edward I-III bust, with the 'naturalistic' hair instead of Henry III's curls. What we think of as an Edward bust was originally Henry III. Scottish coins had naturalistic hair earlier, I think, so perhaps the idea came from there.

Henry III Posthumous Issue (under Edward I) Class 6 Long Cross Penny, 1272-1275

Bury St Edmunds. Silver, 18mm, 1.53g. Crude bust holding sceptre with III to left, naturalistic hair; no initial mark, legend begins at 11 o'clock; HENRICVS REX III. Long cross; ION- O(N)-SAN-TAD. (S 1377). From the Colchester II Hoard 1969.

Edited November 24, 2022 by John Conduitt

[JeandAcre]

Does anyone know, or have an informed guess, about why the strikes on these posthumous Henry IIIs are so terrible?  (Sure enough, I can't find pics of mine, but it's comparable.)  Would the mintage coincide with Edward not having made it back from his crusade?  ...Then again, the New Coinage didn't start till 1279.  Are the posthumous ones even common enough to have been minted during the whole interval from 1272?

[JeandAcre]

I just got this fun pre-reform cut halfpenny of Alexander III.

First coinage (post-transitional, that is, vis. Alexander II; along the lines of the posthumous Henry IIIs), 1250-c. 1280.  Type III.  Walter, moneyer in 'Dun,' an unidentified mint.

Obv.  Profile, crowned and holding sceptre.  ALE[XANDER] REX.

Rev.  Voided long cross (copying Henry III's later coinage); stars in angles.  (From 7 o'clock:) WA[LTER ON] DVI.

Spink, Scotland, Ireland and the Islands (2015), 5043.

[Edessa]

On 11/24/2022 at 2:12 PM, JeandAcre said:

Does anyone know, or have an informed guess, about why the strikes on these posthumous Henry IIIs are so terrible?  (Sure enough, I can't find pics of mine, but it's comparable.)  Would the mintage coincide with Edward not having made it back from his crusade?  ...Then again, the New Coinage didn't start till 1279.  Are the posthumous ones even common enough to have been minted during the whole interval from 1272?

I am not sure if there are additional studies that have been done on Part 2 of the Colchester Hoard, but in The British Museum Occasional Paper Number 87: English Medieval Coin Hoards: I Cross and Crosslets, Short Cross and Long Cross Hoards by M.M. Archibald and B.J. Cook, there is a long article on this hoard by several authors (Clarke, Seaby, Stewartby, Brand and Eaglen). The statement is made that "Class VI is probably related to class VII as class IV is to class V; an early version of a new design before a satisfactory substantive form was reached." Also "The coins are less well produced than the rest of the official pennies in the hoard, including earlier pieces from the same mint." The authors also cite a lower-than-expected average weight and a low silver content of 91.4%, which suggests a "deliberate departure from the standard rather than mere lack of experience or expertise." The 75-page hoard report contains many interesting points. 19 other hoard reports are included in this volume, and it is well worth the purchase if you can find a copy for a reasonable price (about $50). Just FYI, there is a Volume II of this work (Marion Archibald and Gareth Williams) planned for publication in August 2023 with a $50 price tag that can be pre-ordered at Oxbow/Casemate.

For those that might not be aware, this hoard provides an enlightening cautionary tale about rarity and price. Prior to the discovery of Part 2 of this hoard, exactly one specimen of class VI was known. This second part of the Colchester Hoard consisted solely of 1,916 examples of class VI, all from the same dies and from the same dies as the single known specimen. When these coins were released to the market, this issue went from "unobtainable" to one of the most common with examples selling in the $50 to $75 USD range. I have owned 10 examples over the years and none of them are well struck.

The discussion of dating indicates that it can't be established more precisely than 1268-1278.

While I am on the subject, there are many British Museum Occasional Papers available via pdf for free on the British Museum website. Unfortunately, most of the Coin Hoards series are not available. The Cuerdale Hoard Number 185 is available, and it has a chapter on "The Cuerdale Coins" by Gareth Williams and Marion Archibald.

https://britishmuseum.iro.bl.uk/concern/books/8fedcfef-d15a-4f0e-b027-d3b9112f95b1?locale=en

Edited March 6, 2023 by Edessa

[DLTcoins]

55 minutes ago, Edessa said:

For those that might not be aware, this hoard provides an enlightening cautionary tale about rarity and price. Prior to the discovery of Part 2 of this hoard, exactly one specimen of class VI was known. This second part of the Colchester Hoard consisted solely of 1,916 examples of class VI, all from the same dies and from the same dies as the single known specimen. When these coins were released to the market, this issue went from "unobtainable" to one of the most common with examples selling in the $50 to $75 USD range. I have owned 10 examples over the years and none of them are well struck.

 

It's a real eye-opener to think that a single die pair could account for an entire class of long-cross pennies! Are you referring only to Bury St. Edmunds? North (Vol. II, p. 24, 1001) also notes London (Renaud) and Durham (Robert) for class VI.

[JeandAcre]

59 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

It's a real eye-opener to think that a single die pair could account for an entire class of long-cross pennies! Are you referring only to Bury St. Edmunds? North (Vol. II, p. 24, 1001) also notes London (Renaud) and Durham (Robert) for class VI.

This is going to be self-indulgently speculative, but could the paucity of dies for this type --however pronounced-- suggest a relatively early interval in the mintage?  Maybe that was a factor in the New Coinage being such a  departure; then as now, on a geopolitical level, mere esthetics were integral to statecraft.

[John Conduitt]

5 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

This is going to be self-indulgently speculative, but could the paucity of dies for this type --however pronounced-- suggest a relatively early interval in the mintage?  Maybe that was a factor in the New Coinage being such a  departure; then as now, on a geopolitical level, mere esthetics were integral to statecraft.

The reason Class 6 look terrible might be related to so many being found in one hoard (by Ion of Bury). They seem to have needed a lot of coins quickly and kept going even when the dies were ruined. Strangely, almost none got into circulation, and almost all were in the possession of one person. Perhaps there are other hoards to be discovered.

The Class 6 posthumous Henry III issues look more like the new Edward I coinage, which suggests they are nearer in time to the new coinage. But there are 3 posthumous classes, if 5i is indeed posthumous, dated by Rod Blunt as follows:

Class 5i - 1272. This looks like typical Henry III issues, so is definitely earlier.
Class 6 - 1272-1275. But this is not very numerous except for this one hoard, which suggests a short run, perhaps soon after Edward I returned in 1274.
Class 7 - 1275-1278. These are like Class 6 but better quality and more varied.

[Edessa]

Dave, you are correct. I should have said "of Bury". But as John says, the other mint(s?) are rare for Class VI.

As you mention, North (3rd edition, 1991) lists Class VI for London (Renaud), Durham (Robert) and Bury St. Edmunds (Ion or Iohs)

My 1995 edition of Coincraft lists Durham (Robert) and Bury St. Edmunds (Ioh or Iohs).

Spink (45th edition, 2010) says Durham and Bury St. Edmunds. 

Wren (1993) says that Class VI was issues from the late part of the reign of Henry III (c.1269) and may have continued into the early years of Edward I (from 1272). He mentions the single Bury coin and the subsequent 1,916 die duplicates in the Colchester Hoard. He says London (Renarvd) is represented (at the time) only by a cut halfpenny in the British Museum. He lists Durham as a mint for Class VI but does not make a comment about rarity.

On ACSearch and Coinarchives, I only see two examples listed that are not of Bury. Both were sold by Dix Noonan Webb.
Durham (Roberd) for a 1400 GBP hammer in Austion 171 (10 March 2020), Lot 172. 
London (Renaud) for a 3800 GBP hammer in Auction 99 (14 Mar 2012), Lot 237. Same coins sold again for a 1200 GBP hammer in Auction 127 (8 Dec 2014), Lot 2250. 

Searching SBCI online, I see EMC number 1200.0550 Durham (Rodbert) that is not the same coin sold by Dix Noonan Webb.

As for dates, these are often listed as being of Edward I (1272-1307), posthumous coinage in the name of Henry III (struck circa 1272-1278). Others include the note: "According to Eaglen, Long Cross Class VI began in 1268, at the end of the reign of Henry III." Eaglen seems to reference the J.D. Brand discussion "Date of Part 2" in the Colchester Hoard report, that again gives a range of 1268-1278.
 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Edessa
Clarification

[Edessa]

Nice article by Robert Page on the BNS website concerning a new list of known Henry III, Posthumous Class 7 dies.

Please click here to read the article

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for that, @Edessa.  ...Wow, those are better examples than I've ever seen.