Thaler German States (Poland??)

[Egry]

Hi All,

I recently picked up this Thaler as an addition to my collection. The core of my collection is ancients but I will dabble in colonial and pre 1800s world coins if the opportunity arises. Like most the large German states thalers can sometimes be irresistible and I pick them up when one catches my eye.

This one I picked up at a local coin auction, honestly I took a complete chance buying it purely due to its condition and appeal, and that little voice in my head resulting in me ‘needing’ to add it to my collection.

I’m just wondering if there are any local experts on this type of Thaler? Possibly someone that can offer advice on the history, rarity, value?

I did find some info on numista  https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces93124.html however I find with some German coins that if you don’t speak the language your search result may can be limited.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
 

 

[Agricantus]

https://www.ma-shops.de/loebbers/item.php?id=160629022
 

Not much I can help. I look occasionally at Talers in auctions and have never seen this type from Schlesien before. I thought the portraits were crude, almost tooled, but the coin from Dirk Loebbers has the same 'look'. It seems to be quite expensive, unless 1 year makes a huge difference

[Egry]

A fellow coin collector from Germany who I’m in contact with via Reddit ( @Helvius Pertinax!, cheers mate) has provided me with this response, due to the obscure nature of this Thaler I thought it prudent to share:

 

”Okay, I finally found a good paper on the coin (which was a pain to access 😅). Information is quite scarce, we are talking about a relatively small and obscure duchy. I'll tell you what I found out now, since I doubt there is much more material I can access.

First, the attribution:

Duchy of Liegnitz and Brieg

Taler, 1607, Reichenstein mint (today Złoty Stok)

Obv: confronted busts, "through the grace of God, Johann Christian and Georg Rudolf, brothers"

Rev: coat of arms of Niederschlesien (lower Silesia) and Glogau

References: Davenport 7708, Fr.u.S. 1416
 

This piece was minted under Johann Christian zu Liegnotz und Brieg (1602-39) and Georg Rudolf zu Liegnitz (1602-53). It was minted on Reichenstein, which the father of the two dukes had bought in 1599. He got the minting privilege in 1601 from Emperor Rudolf II. After his death, the duchy was split between J.C., who ruled from Brieg and G.R., who ruled from Wohlau. From 1605-12, Christoph Tuchmann was engraver at the Reichenstein mint, I am not sure though, if he was responsible for this coin type.

Due to the small size of the duchy, they didn't mint a lot of coins which makes them somewhat rare. I've seen sold listings for 800€, 1000, 1200, 3600 and 3750, thats all I can access. I'd say due to the good shape your piece is in its likely worth more than 2000€, but im really not an expert on pricing modern coins.“

please note that the above was provided to me by someone who I believe is way more knowledgeable than me. Once permission is provided I will give credit to him via his Reddit tag. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Egry

[robinjojo]

That's a very scarce to rare coin. 

Based on my old, and I mean very old (1982) edition of World Crowns and Talers, 1484-1968, by Frank Draslpvic and Stuart Rubenfeld, your coin is Davenbport 7710.  It is listed at $550 in VF and $800 in EF.  EF is the highest grade with at value.  

I didn't see any auction results for this coin - not too surprising.  I would guess that today that coin would be in the $1,200 to $1,500 range, possibly more.

What did you pay for the coin, if you don't mind my asking?

[Egry]

@robinjojo it wasn’t cheap, obviously someone else besides me saw the value. Worked out to about the equivalent of €1500.

in hand the coin is better than EF in my opinion. I can’t believe I’m saying this but should I get it NGC graded and slabbed? 

[robinjojo]

Well, that's up to you.  I would keep the coin un-slabbed while I own it.  If you decide to sell it, have it slabbed, since that should increase the sale price especially at auction.  Meanwhile you can enjoy the coin in hand.

I think that you paid a fair price, given the coin's rarity.  

That is very nice and attractive coin, by the way and rare as well.  

[Egry]

I agree keep it unslabbed while I own it. I do enjoy it! 
 

I think if it wasn’t at a little known local auction house it would have no likely commanded a higher hammer.  Opinion only.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Egry

[ChrisB]

Here is a link to auction results found on acsearch. The most recent one hammered for almost $4K although all of the rest were much more reasonable.

 

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=1607+7708&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=usd&order=1

[Egry]

@ChrisB, thanks for the lead.

In Summary based on one’s of similar condition and most recent sale:

Hammer $3,969 USD + buyers (sold in 2019)

 

 

Hammer $1,058 USD + buyers (sold in 2108)

 

Hammer $2,200 USD + buyers (sold in 2018)

 

Hammer $1,506 USD + buyers (sold in 2016)

 

(for easy comparison) Below is the one I bought (in 2022) it was about $1,500 USD (includes buyers). Based on the above I think it was a fair price if not even A bit of a deal despite the small flan crack on rev at 12 o’clock. It’s definitely way better condition than the one that sold for $3,969 + buyers.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Egry