Simon

Thank you, their are lots of hoards with tetartera but none I can find for these three coins. Now to make the problem harder is tetartera did not get a used name until Hendys book coinage and Money in 1969, before this they were known as folles or small flat coin. I was just reading a Metcalf article noting Manuel Folles written by in the mid 1960's. So even if it was found in a hoard pre Hendy what would they have called it, small unknown folles? Most hoard notes are not great for unknown coins, no description. Thank you for the other ideas and the gulf group became famous because they were circulated imitations. unattractive, extremely thin and crude is design, most designs were of the very basic types. Here is an example I have not rephotographed in a while. SBCV-1932 15.59 mm and .6gm Seth, we learn with questions, both of us so please dont hold back. To start Julian Bakers Book is excellent, I do not like his treatment of the 12th century in some of the statements because they are controversial. The elimination of the Thessalonica mint was based off a old writing of D.M. Metcalf, but chasing the exact place he took it from is a challenge, he cites the books and pages but Metcalf was not definitive in these statements. The article I just read was not cited but it was Metcalf believing there was a string of mints making low end coinage as well as the main mint. In Bakers work he said one mint outside Constantinople. Now I understand they new each other and he would favor his work over others but Metcalf changed his mind a lot, so finding the final therios are difficult. The book is about 13th century coinage that was circulating in Greece, tetartera continued to circulate but not these coins, so his eliminating them as being important but in the notes he cites Metcalf as these not being Latin. That started me on a hunt on why every other catalog has them as such. So I began following his note trail and nothing is conclusive, including why the other authors thought they were. To make the problem even greater I cant find a single find of these coins. Not in the archeological sites and not in notes of lost coins. So now I am trying to figure how these being attributed in 13th century Latin rule started. Again, the first place I went was Bakers book, the two volume set is superb and its not dealing with my 12th century BUT he has start there , if you dont understand the 12th century you wont understand the 13th. The coinage an extention. Your right, but no one is saying that, they were attributed to Thessalonica on style alone. But again no info on site finds, anywhere. Bingo! These coins are not imitative of anyone's coinage. They are not Bulgarian ( Never found there) I cant rule out Constantinople or Nicea but they will depend on where examples are found. I will chew on the rest of what you wrote I have an appointment to make.

I know the article and have cited it before. More interesting is that it would be coinage of Alexius II , I noted and found the article when I was trying to find an unmodified Manuel SBCV-1974. My example would fit into his article. As you see hammered and clipped. Their was a movement of clipping around the end of the century, or after it the primarly effected Manuel Isaac II and Alexius III coinage. Here is a beautiful example of an Alexius III that had been clipped, judging by its condition it did see much circulation. I went through several books to find any site finds about the Latin tetartera, no site finds noted anywhere. They were placed as being minted in Thessalonica by style alone. Both Grierson and Hendy cited this. I did find the Peter and Paul hoard but no mention of any tetartera at all. No additional information from any of the authors.

Thank You but I have now completed the entire 12th century, it took 20 years, as far as I know its the world's only known privately owned complete collection of the tetartera of the Eastern Roman emperors on the 12th century. I can say that because the collection includes Alexius DOC 41, John II DOC DOC15, and the last one I needed to complete the collection was a half tetarteron of Isaac II DOC 6, I acquired an example in dec 2022. . I do not have a complete collection of Isaac Usurper of Cyprus, I am missing his Saint George half tetarteron. (Mentioned in DOC IV but not pictured.) I specialize in the 12th century Byzantine coinage but I am still a dozen coins from finishing the century (Several Hyperons, a couple of trachea from Alexius and one of the El Aspron trachea from Manuel.). Once I had all of the tetartera the rest were added because they easier to find. The reason for this discussion is I will publish the collection and mention all information I can regarding each type. I have been doing this randomly since the project started a short time ago. I have been an active member of coin boards from the beginning ( Yahoo groups.), I have learned a lot from other collectors and I have tried to share with other collectors all the information I have acquired through the years. However, the main focus of the book will be the least talked about coinage, the tetartera. Now this board has some very good minds for 13th century and beyond coinage and I was hoping that perhaps the coins were mentioned in hoard finds that they would have encountered , D.M Metcalfs original notation on the series came from his document of the Peter and Paul hoard. I dont have that article or the contents of that hoard. As for the other mystery's, I agree, we have lots of opinions but very little evidence. A perfect example is the clipping of the coinage, did it start in Alexius III rule or during Alexius IV or the Latins. An interesting theory is it was started during the rule of Alexius IV and the restored rule of Isaac II to create money" Faithful Imitations" to pay the crusaders the price agreed upon for the throne. Hoard evidence is not conclusive to when exactly the coins were created. Lots of theory's but until we find something written we will never know for certain. As for these Latin Half tetartera, I will revisit my library to find any hoard finds. Still, I welcome any answers, opinions and I thank you for yours @theotokevoithi

Honestly I agree with you here as well as Michael Hendy as these coins being issued by the Latins but I also respect the opinion of David Metcalf, that same opinion is being voiced by people who studied under him. Julian Bakers book basically put these as a footnote but as I also noted the coins did not circulate in Greece so they were never a focus of his study. He also eliminates the Thessalonica 12th century mint based off of Metcalfs writings as well. He believed the second mint was a private operation just outside of Constantinople. (This is also based off Metcalfs writings.) So if the evidence is leading them (Metcalf, Baker) to another creator this seems to be a loop without an answer. The coins that were called Bulgarian imitations (Now faithful imitations) were imitations of trachea of Manuel I, Isaac II and Alexius III. These coins were normally of lighter weight and poorer design, but they were imitations of official minted coins. Two of these tetartera are attractive well struck, in fact as tetartera go these were creative designs. As for them being Bulgarian official issues Yordanovs book eliminates them ever being found in Bulgaria. As an additional twist, both Hendy and Grierson attributed these coins to the Thessalonica mint. Sommer does not include them in his catalog. As for Imitation tetartera you are correct were made but once again not with unique designs, some were created during each rulers rule but others seem to be made late into the 13th century but again imitating rulers long gone. Tetartera was never recalled or brought out of circulation, it was basically a coin that several generations were familiar with. I have not found these coins listed in any hoard data, it would have to be on hoards found after 1969 because I am uncertain how they would be described before that. Nice example @catadc, they are a pain to find. Thanks for posting it.

This article is pertaining to coins from the end on the 12th century, early 13th century during the time period of the fall of the Constantinople to the crusaders from the west. As of recent, an old argument has resurfaced and that is the tetartera said by Michael Hendy to be issued by the Latins were issued by another culture. These coins are not seen frequently but two of them are very attractive designs. The second problem is the coins were once thought to be Bulgarian Imitations, these coins are no longer universally thought to be Bulgarian but now known as “faithful imitations”. Minted by who, and exactly when, still alludes us. Faithful imitations were minted some believe before 1204 A.D. by Alexius III and others believe created by the Latin rulers and of course Bulgarian minted is still a contestant. In the most recent publication that starts with the Alexius coin reform Julian Bakers book Coinage and Money in Medieval Greece 1200-1400 , he eliminates Latin tetartera from his catalog because of its circulation and an obscure old passage of Metcalfs work. He cites David Metcalf eliminating the coins as Bulgarian imitations, unfortunately the passage he refers to basically eliminates all Latin issued tetartera, including two coins that were not Latin issues but are now attributed to Alexius IV and the restored rule of Isaac II (SBCV-2019,2020). The passage does not make it clear what Metcalf thought the source of these coins were but it's alluded to be Bulgarian. The original article is old but reprinted in “Coinage of the crusades and the Latin East”. I have the second edition, printed on page 95 but the numbers he uses in the article are from Hendy’s Coinage and Money in the Byzantine Empire 1081-1261, DOC IV was not published until 1999. So to update the info the coins in question are SBCV-2058, 2059 and 2060. In the paragraph Metcalf eliminates not just 3 tetartera as being non Latin but he also eliminates the Isaac II and Alexius IV tetartera as not Latin either, this is due to the fact they are not found in the Corinth excavations. Well, 4 years after the 2nd publication of his book The last two were reattributed from Latin rule to the restored rule of Isaac II and the first rule Alexius IV tetartera. The first one I have always considered to be my favorite of the Latin rule designs, the cross on the reverse looks like a fishhook or anchor ( St Clements cross) an unusual image never used in Byzantine coinage before, its normally described leaved patriarchal cross. SBCV- 2058 Half tetarteron 17mm 1.59gm The second one is interesting because of the choice of Saints, St Constantine and St Helena. St Constantine was used by Alexius III in his trachea, more than likely the most common of the 12th century trachea. He was a Saint in the Orthodox Christianity but not in the Latin Catholic faith. So would the Latins make a St. Constantine coin? Helena appeared in coinage during her life but not as a saint. She was made a Saint by all of the different Christain faiths starting in the 6th century. This example is rather nice for the issue, nice black patina. SBCV-2059 Half tetarteron? 20mm 2.28gm The third one is crude, the unnamed king appears to be stumpy, not an attractive die, it looks crude and could have been made by anyone but this one has another tie in, its imagery is identical to a Latin trachy SBCV-2035 an interesting theory is it was made as an experimentally tetarteron to coincide with the trachy. SBCV-2060 Half tetarteron 17.11mm 1.5gm So Julian Bakers omission of these coins from his book was more than fair since his book dealt with coinage in Greece, these coins never appeared in any of the archeological finds in that land. I don’t agree him citing Metcalf, especially when Metcalf determined them to be of Bulgarian origin and we have since retitled these coins Faithful Imitations because it is uncertain why the Bulgarians would copy Byzantine coinage. Metcalf was excellent with hoard analysis, but I think to properly attribute a coin you need to add more info, most importantly style and subject matter. In Yordanov’s book “Coins and circulation in Medieval Bulgaria 1081-1261” none of these coins appear (including Alexius IV), in fact the last tetarteron to appear in the book is Alexius III SBCV- The last of the Constantinople issues. Alexius III Tetarteron SBCV-2014 21mm 2.7gm We know the need for tetartera was still occurring in the 13th century, imitation tetartera has been proven to be created in the 13th century and perhaps as late as the 14th. Ironically these coins being imitated were from rulers that had died a century earlier. But these three (Latin) tetartera never seemed to make it in mass to the area that predominately used tetartera, the Greek Balkans. Another mystery in Later Byzantine coinage. If not the Latin's, who made these coins? Further thoughts any info I have missed (Hoard finds?), Peter and Paul hoard? Do these coins even belong grouped together? They are very different; the subject matter is strangely out of sync with each other. Any thoughts, other examples, would be very appreciated. Thank You, Simon

Perhaps I used the wrong term, please use the word attractive as liberally as you wish. We all have different tastes and no one to judge, no winners here, just sharing coins you find beautiful, in the context of the type or just in general. Here is one of two excellent trachea I Have, both are SBCV-1966, this one, even with the two-strike process it came out almost perfect very unusual for a circulated coin, gold for instance saw the least amount of circulation, the condition is nearly always better. This coin is a billion trachy during the reign of Manuel I Comnenus, he had the longest reign in the century and his coinage was in abundance, but this one is an eye catcher.

Beautiful @JeandAcre. Do you know the size?

Just one on each post, you can post more, just pace yourself. Its more looking at a special coin than being swamped with a bunch of awesome coins. I think it also evens the playing ground for new collectors.

I was going through a drawer of coins set aside and this caught my attention. A very attractive Class G Anonymous follis and I thought I would share. A nice chunky one.7.5 gm 26.12mm It needs a little cleaning. Post any attractive Byzantine you have. Only Rule one coin per post, please don't do multiple, enjoy one at a time. However, you can do multiple posts but it would be best if you spaced them out between postings.

SBCV-534 My example.

Its been a busy year, not enough time on coins. However, when I saw this, I added it to my collection. Not a silver coin like my original post but a silvered example that is very uncommon for this issue. I thought it would belong in this thread. Alexius III SBCV-2011v (Uncertain what variation) 21.62mm and only 1.67 grams. , Seems very light but the silvering is also very unusual, leads me away from it being an imitation. The obverse is difficult to make out but Nimbate bust of Christ. The rev Alex III and St Constantine. The silvering shows no indication of it being modern, so just a very rare find to have it silvered.

It is a very nice example, well struck on both sides, as you may not know this coin required two strikes to make. As Seth said it was the first billion trachea issued in his reign, the death of his father John II was rather sudden, hunting accident with a poison arrow. The portrait is one of the few times you see the ruler without a beard and Christ is also shown as beardless. Your example is attractive and a nice addition to any collection. I paid about 10 times the price you father did for my example. Your example also has an almost a full legend, mine does not. The silver content on these billion issues was as high as 8% but during Manuels reign it began to decline due to debasement. My specialty is the 12th century. This coinage was created after Manuels grandfathers coin reform in 1092, the Alexius coin reform. Enjoy the coin.

Sorry, I am traveling, home now for a few hours and then headed to SA, I won't be able to participate in conversations in a meaningful way till I get home, please don't think me rude. Just super busy.

In my thoughts three main things created the Italian Rennaissance, the defeat of the eastern Romans in Anatolia and the agreement Alexius I Comnenus made with the Venetians after that. The tax-exempt agreement helped the Eastern Romans short term but was a temporary fix. It made the Venetians very Rich. The eastern Romans were basically well educated, 30% to 60 % could read (Depends on who's figures you go by.) Much higher percentage than the rest of Europe. The Eastern Romans always told the tales of the Greeks and some of the Romans but in Italy those stories were sacrilegious, the world changed on the first fall of Constantinople in 1203, new philosophies and wealth entered Italy via refugees and plunder. With that the return of the Greek and Roman style. The italian Rennaissance started with literature, then art. The turning point was Dantes DeVine comedy, a mans journey into the afterlife. At the same time period the Moors were driven out of Spain, they too knew and treasured the Greek mythology, so in a period of a few hundred years, what had been shunned was being rediscovered by the Italians. The rebirth and relove of old Rome and Greece. Constantinople's fall brought more ideas and literature into a society that had been driven into a dark age, the dark ages only existed in parts of Europe and nowhere else. So money, a change of ideals and the addition of new thoughts made the Italian renaissance possible.

Nice additions to your collection. Cheers to your great collecting year.

Excellent write ups but dont hold back next time. 🙂 Beautiful coins! I hope this year is just as successful. Happy New Year!

The change is unusual, but it would be an interesting design change to make a coin of lesser weight. I don't think it would indicate a lesser valued coin. In any case it is a variation from the original design and any variations indicate a different type. I have several of these from group lots, I will pay more attention to them because of this posting, Thank you @ela126 Happy New Year. Simon

I do not think so. I would not chase this coin. The weights of the anonymous follis series fell greatly durring the series 100 years of different rulers making them. ( I know this is not part of that series but that is easily track able.) From 18gm down to Alexius class J or K at 4gm. He starting ruling a few years after this fellow. Debasement of the coinage was getting very bad, under Michael IV the gold content of the histamena was 24 carats, then 19 carats at Constantine IX, Then Michael VII it fell to 8 carats fine. One third of its original value. Alexius takes over in 1080"s and then when able to do so, reforms all coins in 1092. The reform was needed. Your coin above listed is same size just less weight, we have no idea where it circulated, where it was found and if it was found in a hoard or single loss. If it was a single loss it tells us nothing, if it was in a hoard that would tell us much more,such as what did all the folles in the hoard weigh? Was it low or equal? Even without this info i would say the coin is light and not a half. Simon

No it was definitely #1 Q, 20 years is a long search, i was not even sure it actually exsisted in that size, no pics only description. Also looking at the obverse i knew it was not an imitation but official issue. I just cannot express how joyful it was putting that coin to bed. I am now the only person to privatly owned complete collection of 12th century tetartera. I can say that with confidence because I own one coin that only 2 are known, mine and the museum of Thessalonica. Alexius Doc-41. I am sure another will show up. But when? But the book is a close second. Its a nicely printed informative collection. I am curious how many others lost their importance because the collector passed and it sits in a dusty bookcase. I just got lucky i was at an auction one showed up. I do want to add another to my tetartera collection, Alexius IV tetarteron 1204 CE. Issued only for a few months. One showed up this year and i passed on it waiting for a better example. I can kick myself now.

I know Seth I try but my job is very unique, when I am on an event all of my time is spent with clients. Or preparing for the next event. Most of my unhindered reading time actually is on a plane. Thank You Al. it was just a long time in finding it. Here is a bigger brother of the coin, larger size. In hindsight it should have made the list. I know John, I have always admired your collection, I particularly enjoy your medieval gold coins. I only got into gold coins in the last 4 or 5 years. I choose post reform tetartera originally because they were basically Unkown and cheap, that changed when I stupidly sent an email off to all the dealers I could find online looking for different issues. I must have contacted 50 plus dealers with a want list , after that price went from $20.00 a coin to several hundred on certain issues and I suddenly had a lot of competition. The gold coins started going into my collection when I already had most of the copper ones. Thank you for the comments, Gentlemen.

These are normally my favorite threads for the year but this year time to enjoy them is what I have been lacking the most. Work time has had me traveling a good portion of the year, I did get to go to some cool places but little time to sight see. This year the threads I saw held some very impressive and beautiful coins, I'm afraid my list will lack the beauty of most collections. I collected only a few coins this year, I continued to focus on my goals of the 12th century Eastern Roman Empire. Most of my free time this year was spent researching and I expanded my collection to the 14th century, like my original collection I chose to start with one denomination. Here is my top 5 #5 Andronicus III (1328-1341) Assarion SB-2478 LIA? OBV Bust of St George REV Half length figure of Andronicus III ( Joint rule in Sear notes?) Interesting late depiction of the saint, the use of Saints on coinage in this time period was much the same as the pre-Christian use of Gods, to send a message. St George died during the Diocletian persecution. A Roman solider put to death for his religion. Interesting I just read a newly translated Greek version of his life, they changed him to being murdered by the Persian Emperor not wanting to bad mouth their own heritage. #4 Andronicus II and Michael IXth Assarion SB-2448 (1295-1320) 1.81gm 20mm OBV- 4 B’s in a Cross pattee Rev-Emperors holding jointly a labarum. #3 SBCV-2439 Andronicus II and Michael IX,( 1295-1320) Should be the Archangel Michael, the strike makes him look more like an eagle, this coin that is listed as an Assarion is very similar to a trachy. The answer is allusive but still attractive. #2 Not a coin but a rare book from Simon Bendall that was limited to 250 copies. I was lucky enough to acquire #44. It is a prize for any collector of Late Roman coinage. #1, ISAAC II ANGELUS AE Half TETARTERON S-2006V A DOC 6 (1185-1195) OBV Bust of Archangel Michael, beardless and nimbate, wearing divitision, collar piece, and jeweled loros of a simplified type, holds in r. a jeweled sceptre, and in l. Globus cruciger. REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma. Divitision, collar piece, and jeweled loros of a simplified type; holds in r. hand scepter cruciger and in l. anexikakia. Size 15.55 Weight 1.9gm The last coin that fulfilled my original collecting goal. All of the post reform tetartera from the 12th century. I acquired it Dec last year, too late to make last years list. My previous examples of the coin did not match the description, one was a mangled overstrike, the other did not match the size listed in Sear. I had not even seen a good picture of the coin that was described in Sear. The key is how small it is, a die size of 11mm I purchased it on ebay for less than $25.00, It was described as a common Manuel I coin. When I received it I thanked the seller and told them the correct attribution, turns out they had another, not as nice but the auction price exceeded $500.00. That coin made gave my collecting goal a clear ending. I hope everyone has a great 2024 Simon

Superb additions @Curtisimo but I am particularly impressed by your Provenance listed with the coins. Congratulations on an excellent year.

Beautiful obverse, congratulations on your new one @ewomack I have been attracted to overstrikes lately, this is not best example but it very interesting on the restrike. Its is a bit messy, A nicer one, similar to yours on obv detail.

Thank you for the info, you said the Alexius coins are known, do you have pictures of these medals? I have not encountered this before in any of the books I have read but judging on the age of your reference that is not uncommon for information to be lost.

Never be sorry about finding great examples, some of the coins in my collection I spent years looking for any example. Last year late DEC I completed my original goal of getting all of the tetartera of the 12th century. The last one I just got lucky, it was on Ebay, mis attributed by the seller and I got it for a song. It completed my 20 year plus year search. ( I wont picture it here I will in my 10 pics for the year post I want to do.) In the last 5 or 6 years I began acquiring the other coins of the century, the hard ones where the coppers I already had almost all of those. The other ones, the gold and the billion were easily obtainable. My collection now, to complete the century, I still need only a few coins, less than a dozen. This year I bought only a small number of coins but I aquired more literature to fill in the gaps of knowledge. its no longer just a collection for me, it is a goal to fill the riddles the Easter Romans left behind regarding the coin reform. The biggest problem is very little contemporary literature ever mentions money or the economy, it was considered bad taste to write about it. Most of the information we get regarding the money comes from tax documents. As for the reform itself, it was the first major coin reform in 500 years, it also shaped the next currency for the next two centuries. To understand the coinage after the fall of Constantinople to the Latins you have to understand the Alexius coin reform. In regard to the collection the hardest to acquire is the Alexius coinage, it was of a high value, and it was defiantly restruck or melted down by his successors. Some of his coins will take me another decade to find. I hope I am wrong on @theotokevoithi coin, I hope he has found something new but at the same time I do not want to agree to something I am not seeing but he has the coin in hand and is perhaps seeing what I am not. Here is a pic of one of my favorite Alexius coins. An El Aspron trachy, 3 of these were equal to a hyperpyron. And here is a coin tray for John II Comnenus. It includes a dupe of one of his rarest coins ( Tetarteron bottom left listed in DOC) just to even the pic out. It is in scale so you can see the denominations side by side.