Roerbakmix

Hi @Briac, thanks for your reply, and glad you received my email. Welcome to the forum!

perhaps interesting to note that this coin was found in Belgium.

Thanks Klaus. Do you, by any chance, have his contact information?

Interesting. RIC suggests a date of 238-239 for RIC 202 and 242-244 for RIC 217. Are you implying it's a mule? 

I'm helping a friend identifying some recently found antoniani. We were wondering whether this coin is a variety to RIC IV 217:

at first glance, it's RIC IV 217:

however, Victory on this coin is to the left, and not to the right. Is this a variety to RIC 217? 

Perhaps it would have been clearer if you've asked this community to fill in a survey, which I think many of us would happily do. My flow was:

1) interesting and promising title!

2) great: a new interesting site!

3) purpose of the site not so clear ...

4) re-reading your post: do you want our opinion on your site, or want us to fill a survey?

just my thoughts. I will fill in the survey though!

I've just checked your site. It looks nice, however, I'm not quite sure what I can do with it? There is no description: will it help me to attribute coins, does it provide an overview of auction results, is it an alternative for my google sheets catalogue? 

My gold coins from this period, but minted by the Frisian Neighboors:

Early Medieval, Frisia Magna. Dronrijp type Tremissis or triens. Obverse: bust to left, with NR before and small cross above. Dotted circles above. Reverse: anchored cross with U and mirrored L, dot below. Ineligible legend around, including runic letter A. Ref: Boelens type B, Pol series 2, class 2-3. Weight: 1.212g, XRF: 77% gold. Provenance: found in Nov. 2021 near Castricum (NL). Bought from Hollandia Numismatics.
(sellers picture).

 discussed here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/early-frisian-gold-–-the-dronrijp-triens.396315/

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AV Tremissis (Nietap type 1), minted: Frisia?; 620-630 AD
Obv: Die rust / worn die common for type, but remainder of bust to right with legend is visible
Rev: double cross in beaded circle, vestigial legends
Weight: 1.19g; Ø:11mm. Catalogue: SCBI 69, 1090 this coin; cf: T&S 73 = Sutherland 90 = Crondall 95; Metcalf [2016], 22. Provenance: Ex. Tony Abramson, bought from spink auction 21070 lot 998. ; acq.: 05-2022

 discussed here:

Congratulations on such a nice coin! I like it in all its ugliness 🙂 I think I remember a thread on this type by you(?) earlier on CT, and added the type to my ever expanding wish list.

Was this coin recognised by the finder? It makes you wonder what kind of battered rarities exist in the ‘to identify’ heaps of coins…

Last week, our fourth child - a son -  was born. Coincidentally, the package containing the coin below arrived at the moment we left to the hospital. It didn't really feel like the best moment to open the package (my wife was having contractions) so I left it unopened (which made me feel very responsible and adult). 

Two days later, I opened the package, and there was Cnut in all his Cnutness, with a lovely golden toning, perfect readable legend, and nice strike (with only one peck mark on the reverse, though I don't mind those).  

ANGLO-SAXON, Cnut. Denomination: AR Penny (Short cross type), minted: England, Londen;
Obv: +CNVT . REX A. Diademed bust of Cnut to the left; scepter before.
Rev: +L.EOFPOL.D ON LV: Voided cross.
Weight: 1.17g; Ø:17.5mm. Catalogue: - . Provenance: Bought from J.T.M. van Bergen, who bought it as a lot of three Cnut pennies, which were (allegedly) part of a hoard found in 2014 near the Thames in London (though I couldn't find a PAS registration). ; acq.: 11-2022
 

When I started collecting in 2018, my main focus was Roman coinage. In 2019, I bought a group lot of (the descendants of?) a metal detectorist. This lot contained three anglo-saxon pennies: two of Aethelred, and one of Cnut. The latter turned out to be an extremely rare CNVT REX DAENORVM type. As I focussed on Roman coinage, these coins were of little interest, and I auctioned one Aethelred, and the Cnut (they sold for resp. 200 and 1900 USD, which was a bit less than expected). 

My current focus however is the ~650-800 AD Western Europe coinage (Anglo Saxon, Frisian, Merovingian). The Cnut would have served as a nice coin to mark the end of the collection. I've sold a lot of coins in the process of focussing - but I regretted selling the Cnut more and more, and was on the lookout for a decent replacement. 

Though not rare, this coin is certainly decent. It was offered me as early as 2019, but for a price of €450, it was a bit too expensive. In sept. 2022, I met the dealer in person, and he showed me the Cnut again. It was still €450, however, in hand the patina, strike, and overall sharpness of the coin was just perfect. I hesitated a while (€450 is a lot of money for a non-sceatta coin), but at a moment of weakness following a sleep deprived night, I bought it. 

 Still a lot of money though. 

Anyway, please share the coins that were in the back of your head for a long time until you bought it!

On 11/12/2022 at 9:15 AM, madhatter said:

Thank you! I think it need slightly cleaning, especially on reverse, but since im not a specialist, i will leave it like it is.

I would advise against it; the overall nice patina would probably be harmed.

Hi,

last picture is a bit unsharp. Could you include photos of the coin?

24 minutes ago, dougsmit said:

I also am unique in hating those fake reflections.  I only did one of a coin about to have a bad day. 

Hehe, I like your bluntness. I'm not sure I like it either; I just haven't tried it. 

I'd like the CNG grey background, as an alternative to black. 

1 minute ago, Limes said:

Thanks @Roerbakmixand @John Conduitt for the information. I'm still getting my head around the many variants. I found the informative site of the Zeeuws Genootschap, kzgw online, and dive deeper in the world of the E series... 🙂

Hi @LImes, well you should certainly do so! 

Are you aware that nearly all "jaarboeken" are available online? See:

https://jaarboekvoormuntenpenningkunde.nl/jaarboek-op-artikel/

If you plan to delve deeper into series E (and why not?!): this is the main reference by Metcalf & Op den Velde:

https://jaarboekvoormuntenpenningkunde.nl/jaarboek/2009/2009a.pdf: the description of the types

https://jaarboekvoormuntenpenningkunde.nl/jaarboek/2010/2010a.pdf: the die study. Helpful if you're uncertain about the variety (which I'm still quite often). 

Series D is a bit easier to grasp:

https://jaarboekvoormuntenpenningkunde.nl/jaarboek/2003/2003a.pdf

Note that I'm working on a stylistic breakdown of the Series E - a very short and concise summary of the two volumina by Metcalf and Op den Velde. Though their work is the standard, it is very inaccessible: a flow chart for identification would have helped tremendously, and is certainly possible. I can send you it by private message if you want? 

1 hour ago, Al Kowsky said:

R, That's a wonderful group of coins ☺️! I'd love to see these coins photographed on a plain white background instead of black. A white background would enhance the color & toning of these coins 😉.

@Al KowskyI could certainly give it a try! Though my photo's do not require editing - the black background is achieved using a similar method as @dougsmit. In the end, I would like pictures like those of @kirispupis, with the fancy mirroring effects, etc. But this, of course, requires way more time (to master) than I have, presently, available. 

@Topcat7, as @John Conduittsaid, all sceatta's a bust on their obverse, but in varying degrees of abstraction. For example, you'll probably recognize the bust on the last coin, the Series J type 85 sceatta. I bought it however to supplement my other series J type 85, which is more naturalistic: 

as compared to the new one (so you don't have to scroll): 

This bust is comparable to series B:

... which also have varying levels of abstraction:

For the continental series D, this abstraction can require some training, see e.g. the following examples:

Series D, BMC type 10 (please also pay attention to the 'porcupine' reverse: it's not difficult to recognize it as a very abstract face, with a prominent nose, and two dots as lips):

Series D, BMC 2c, bust to right. The zig-zag lines above should be interpreted as a crown, or helmet.

Face to right, very abstract:

Face to the left:

... another face to the left:

... believe it or not: face to the right. Interestingly, the elements of a series D BMC 2c are still present: runic EPA legend before; a inverse-V behind. Note that, while the obverse is very crude, the reverse is still carefully executed. 

Moving on to Series E: remember the reverse of the first example of Series D, BMC 10 (with the 'moon-faced' porcupine). With some fantasy, you might recognize a face in this Primary phase, Series E variety G4 "XAZA" type:

but of course, after a while, things get really weird (this is, by the way, sceatta nr 11; it's a series E, subvariety K). 

Series E, subvariety e (reverse type 1)

Series E, subvariety k:

idem

10 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

Holding a non-descript tiny lump of metal he ejaculates  "it''s from the BCD  collection! 

'... and with a wonderfull, deep cabinet toning!'

@Limes, thanks! Indeed, it can be though with three, and four will probably be somewhat more timeconsuming (although the step twins > third child wasn't as difficult as zero to two children ;)). 

Regarding your Dorestad question: @John Conduittanswered it better than I could. There are no sceatta's that can be attributed to Dorestad with certainty. The early Madelinus tremisses are however attributed to that mint location, but later immitations probably not. 

I guess  a primary phase series E will get you as closest as possible - a plumed bird type is then a good choice. I'm working on a revision of the plumed bird categorization as proposed by Blackburn and repeated by Metcalf and Opdenvelde (2014, JMP). Hopefully, I'll find some time to finish it, and post it here. 

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Zedelius, Interlace or Maastricht type), minted: Mint possibly in Maastricht; 695-740 AD
Obv: Stylised, bust left with thickly braided hair in simple diadem, exaggerated features, cross pommée before, beading below and behind.
Rev: Interlaced cross with three pellets in each quadrant
Weight: 0.57g; Ø:11mm. Catalogue: Abramson 60-10. Provenance: Ex. Elsen, auction 150, lot 1005; acq.: 03-2022
 

This common series E var G2 is an obv. and rev. die match to another one I own, something I discovered by coincidence only yesterday. It's tempting to phantasize about what these coins, perhaps minted on the same day, have seen in the 1300 years after their seperation. 

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series E, primary phase, variety G2), minted: Frisia; 695-715/720
Obv: Porcupine with thin spine, ending in large dots, attaching proximal end of beak - distal part of beak not attached. Three dots at sharp point of beak; one dot between beak and spine. Below upper part of square, largely off-flan
Rev: Central annulet with pellet within, flanked by four lines ending in pellet. Above cross-pommee
Weight: 0.81g; Ø:12.1mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Ex. Elsen, auction 150, lot 1009; acq.: 03-2022
Struck with broken die on the obverse, mainly in the beak. Otherwise sharply struck and nice patina

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series E, primary phase, variety D), minted: Frisia; 695-715/720
Obv: Porcupine with beak (attached to spine). Two dots below; cross-pommee, with one large dot on top, spine ending in large annulet (mostly off-flan)
Rev: Beaded square with large central dot-within-anulet; around annulet, zig-zag line, and dotted-line
Weight: 0.81g; Ø:12.1mm. Catalogue: No die match in JMP 2010; similar to 666-667. Provenance: Ex. Elsen, auction 150, lot 1008; acq.: 03-2022
 

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series J, type 85), minted: Anglo-Saxon; 710-725, York
Obv: Diademed head right, double strand pearl diadem
Rev: A bird on a cross, pellets in field in front of bird and below horizontal bar on the cross; annulets at the ends of the horizontal arms, beaded inner circle
Weight: 0.88g; Ø:11.6mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Bought from Eddy Pauwels, who found the coins near Etaples-sur-Mer (2022); acq.: 07-2022
 

--- the other two will follow later 🙂

Last year was incredibly busy. We're expecting our fourth child (any day now), I'm (still) wrapping up my PhD in Clinical Epidemiology, we've moved to another city. But, last week, I finally finished my _own_ place in this house, and reinstalled my photography setup (won't share pictures, it's ugly but it works). 

I've photographed 12 new sceattas. An irritating aspect of sceattas is they look wonderful in hand, but when you photograph them, the look pitted, rough, worn, etc. Anyway, here they are:

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series D, type 2c), minted: Frisia; 695-715 AD
Obv: Abstract bust to the right, Runic EPA before
Rev: Central cross, with pellets in each quarter, large annulet above. VVVVs around
Weight: 1.21g; Ø:11.4mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Bought from Jean Peusens, found near Maastricht; acq.: 11-2022
Nice, even dark tone, well detailed.

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series D, type 2c), minted: Frisia; 695-715 AD
Obv: Abstract and crude bust to the right, with prominent square nose. EPA before.
Rev: Central cross, with pellets in each quarter, large annulet above. VHN around
Weight: 11.1g; Ø:1.13mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Bought from Jean Peusens, found near Maastricht; acq.: 11-2022
Die-break in the A of EPA

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series D, type 8), minted: Frisia; 695-715 AD
Obv: Central cross with garbled runic legend around
Rev: Standard with central annulet, a V in each quadrant
Weight: 0.97g; Ø:11.1mm. Catalogue: Die match to reverse dies 38 and 40; possibly also obverse die match. . Provenance: Ex. Elsen, auction 150, lot 1017; acq.: 03-2022

The next coin is extremely rare, with two examples known; both in my collection. I'll post a thread on this specific coin later, but both the find location (France) and the unusual obv/rev combination (a mule of the primary phase and secondary phase) is interesting. 

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series E, (mule) plumed bird // reverse type ?), minted: Frisia magna; 690-750 AD
Obv: Plumed bird with three lined tail
Rev: Central annulet with V's around, cross-pommee above, all within square
Weight: 0.32g; Ø:9.3mm. Catalogue: Not in JMP. Provenance: Found near Étaples, France. Bought from Le Numis d'or, Ebay (ID 185594493974); acq.: 10-2022

The next coin was also found in France, and although stylistically more in line with the subvarieties of the plumed bird type, it does not follow it entirely. I'm not 100% certain whether it's a fourree or not, but the pits on the obverse are very suggestive. 

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series E, primary phase, plumed bird type), minted: Frisia Magna; 690-715 AD
Obv: Plumed bird with long, curved neck; cross-pomme below.
Rev: Dot-within-central annulet; around lines and two pellets on each side
Weight: 1.02g; Ø:10.9mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Found near Uzes (France). Bought on Ebay from Yamushi, Ebay nr: 195378840092; acq.: 10-2022
Fourree?

EARLY MEDIEVAL, Anonymous. Denomination: AR Sceatta (Series G5), minted: Anglo-Saxon? Frisia?; 650-750 AD
Obv: porcupine-like figure with runic letters around
Rev: runic letters around ornate uncial m
Weight: 0.9g; Ø:11.2mm. Catalogue: . Provenance: Found near Rochester (Kent) in 1980s, bought on Ebay from Ancient17, ID 385156253365; acq.: 10-2022

----

kids are awake 😞 Will post the remaining 7 later!
 

Thanks @Nap. Yours are impressive - esp the last two. 

I own a rough, broken stepped cross type:

It's an interesting type, though I really don't see the 'stepped cross'. 

I moderate a Dutch metaldetecting forum, with about 300 sceatta finds. I've categorized them all: most were Series D and E; there were no stepped cross types. 

Also, regarding the G5 sceatta in the first post: I've discussed this coin with Tony Abramson, and we came to the conclusion that this coin is in fact the third known specimen, i.e. this one:

(3) Found by Kevin Easton, near Ware (Herts)

I also received scans of #2. So, these are the three specimens known (and not four, as in the post above):

On #2, there is a hint of letters off-flan (on the right); it's minted a bit more off center than #1 and #3. We'll have to wait until an off-center exemplar surfaces to reconstruct the dies, unfortunately. 

By the way, @Severus Alexander, your example is probably Series E, secondary phase subvariety d. 

8 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Congrats on that amazing acquisition, @Roerbakmix!  An intriguing coin, for certain... I'd be curious to hear your reasons for being skeptical of a continental mint.  It would be especially neat if the coin had been made in Britain.

Thanks 🙂 My initial post was somewhat unfinished. I'll give it a try (kids are sleeping again). The point I tried to make is:

1) Find spots: all four known specimens were found in England, and three in the Kent region

2) Similarity of style with other Anglo-Saxon (non-continental) porcupine sceatta types (the Aethelred, the Series T LEL type, the Monita Scorvm). 

 > the combination of a porcupine obverse an non-series E/D type reverses

 > the presence of a (Latin) legend which is more common on Anglo-Saxon sceatta's than on continental - though there are epigraphic continental sceatta's (as illustrated above)

 > the dissimilarity of the porcupine with the Series E types. I'm working on a stylistic breakdown of all the subtypes of Series E, based on the work by Metcalf&Op den Velde (which is available online). They divide the Series E in three phases (primary, secondary and tertiary) based on stylistic characteristics and hoard evidence. The style of the present "G5 sceatta" is very different to those of Series E; it is somewhat comparable to varieties of the Tertiary phase. This is also, in my opinion, the case of the illustrated Anglo-Saxon porcupine-types above. 

In other words, the presence of a porcupine on a sceatta doesnt'make it continental per se. This line of reasoning is similar to Series F, which were attributed to the Anglo Saxons (a bust, in combination with a stepped cross and garbled Latin legend: it must be Anglo Saxon), which has recently been attributed to a Quentovic mint (ie continental):

(my example). 

Thanks @John Conduitt. It sold for 25 GBP ... anyway, you never know how high the other bidder might have wanted to go 🙂 In the end, I bought it for 90 GBP, which is still cheap for such a rare coin (even though it's broken). 

I've edited the post, and added the images that were broken - could you confirm they are visible? 

This year, in June, Noonans auctioned a very rare, but broken sceatta (auction 5, lot 55). Though I planned bidding on it, I totally forgot the auction. It hammered for the estimate of 40 GBP. 

To my suprise, it popped up on eBay for only 90 GBP( + ~30GBP shipping/VAT). I immediately bought it, and it arrived today. 

So, what makes this coin so special? 

First, it is extremely rare. Three others are known, all in private hands

1) ex-Tony Abramson, found near Sheriff Hutton (North Yorks) (hammered for 1000GBP)

And the remaining two without pictures: 

(2) C. S. S. Lyon, found by J. Short, Barham (Kent), 1982,

(3) Found by Kevin Easton, near Ware (Herts)

My coin was found near Rochester, Kent (according to the seller, who knew the finder). This find location is close to the second and third coins (Barham and Ware), suggestive for a mint location near Kent - though the coin from the Abramson collection (found near sherrif Hutton in York) is a bit of an outlier. 

Second, it combines the 'porcupine' design with Latin legends. The porcupine design is usually attributed to a continental mint, ie. series E. Combinations with legend, or other designs exists, such as the AETHELRED sceatta's

(not my coin)

... the MONITA SCORVM type:

(not my coin)

... the Series T 'LEL' type

..., a rare mule with the SEDE type:

(not my coin)

... and the scarce series D BMC var 10 type

(part of my collection; this coin combines the series Anglo Saxon A/C/R obverse with EPA runes, and a porcupine reverse with Latin legend reading "TILV" - possibly revering to the Dutch city Tiel)

Though it's unclear what the legend on the present coin read (ideas are welcome), the presence of legends on a sceatta give some insights in period of numismatics which consisted mostly of coins with either no or inelligible legends. Part of the legends on this coin are off-flan (which isn't unusally for sceatta's. Nearly all sceatta's are too small), however, combining die-identical coins together (especially including off-center coins) might help to reconstruct the entire design. I've tried this with my coin and the one of Tony Abramson, but unfortunately, both coins are equally well-centered (I have not yet found the images of the other two coins, which might help). 

Third, Tony Abramson attributes this coin to a continental mint (I'm not quite sure I agree), but for the time being, based on the design of the porcupine, it's grouped in Series E, primary phase variety G, subtype 5. These types are categorized based on the following criteria (from Metcalf&Op den Velde, JMP 2014): 

Series E, variety G1

Usually of finer style than G2-3.

o   Obverse: Three pellets near the acute angle above the “nose”Beneath the spine a distinctive rectangular box enclosing an X, usually largely off-flan

o   Reverse: Central circle with pellet. Four parallel lines ending in a pellet. Outside dotted border, sometimes a large N, or cross-pommee

Series E, variety G2

Coarser style than G1

o   Obverse: Rectangular box is either off-flan, or has disappeared. Angle of the ‘nose’ is less acute. Three pellets are bolder. Bristles are more widely spaced

o   Reverse: Virtually indistinguishable from G1.

Series E, variety G3.

Coarser style than G1

o   Obverse: No pellets near beak (= main difference). Often plumb zig-zag line beneath the central curve, at the edge of the flan (sometimes also visible on G2)

o   Reverse: similar to G1

Series E, variety G4

o   Obverse: Spikes are more densely spaced. Under the spine is a distinctive legend XAZO, with the O being more prominent, diamond shaped and inserted into the bend of the Z.

o   Reverse: Largely similar to G1

I already own subvarieties G2 and G4:

And G4,

...  which interestingly also contains a Lating legend on the obverse: "XAZO" (though I'm convinced it reads AZO and not XAZO - the X is of a different font, and probably resembles a diadem - see below). 

Subvariety G1 and G3 are not difficult to acquire (G4, ie, the XAZO variety is scarce though). 

For now, I will folllow the classification by Tony Abramson, and group the new addition a G5. This classification was based on the design of the porcupine, though I believe it's closer to Series E tertiary phase var E. I'm however leaning towards an anglo-saxon mint, both based on style (the porcpine is distinctly different than the continental ones), the use of (Latin) legends (though this is also encountered on continental sceattas, as illustrated above), and the find locations (though with n=4, some caution should be taken). 

-- abrupt end of post, as my childrens are awake 😉

@Nap, congrats with the LONDVNIV type. Wonderful coins. 

Here are my two gold coins, but then from the continent.