Jump to content

Charles le Sage, 1364-1380


Al Kowsky

Recommended Posts

I was happy to win a French, early Renaissance gold coin in high Gothic style at CNG 124, pictured below.

FRANCECharlesV1364-1380.AWKCollection.jpg.35baad79537802c5ec4c2e10fafcc070.jpg

FRANCE. Charles le Sage (the wise), 1364-1380. AV Franc a' pied: 3.77 gm, 27 mm, 8 h. Obverse: King standing in Gothic arch, holding a sword & Main de Justice scepter; 7 lis to right & left; KAROLVS * DI * GR FRANCORV * REX. Reverse: Cross treflee, pellet within angled quadrilob at center, cantoned with lis in 2nd & 4th quarters, crown in 1st & 3rd quarters; all within angled quadrelob, les in spandrels; XPC * VIHCIT * XPC * REGHAT * XPC * IMPERAT. NGC 6865696-018, MS62. 

NGC grading of these coins & most medieval coins seems rather pointless, since there is no evaluation for style, strike, & surface, as there is with ancient coins. It seems the only point is slabbing these coins is to make sure they haven't been clipped, altered, or have been mounted into jewelry. These coins are so thin it's nearly impossible to find one that is completely struck with all elements visible. I've seen many of these coins graded much higher than my coin that are totally inferior to my coin, see the comparison below.

PCGSMS644287.50PCGSMS622040AWK.jpg.8798b48ba8d36799f1b966cab2dcf9d9.jpg

The top coin was sold in the same auction as my coin & was graded MS64, it sold for $4,287.50. My coin pictured below it was graded was graded MS 62, & I paid $2,040.00. Now which of these two coins do you think was the better value 🤔? I think the bidder who won the top coin bought the plastic & not the coin 😏.

The Ecu D' Or issued by Charles VI was smaller, with an average weight of 3.45 gm. I bought the example pictured below a long time ago for about $700. It has expertly engraved dies & is an excellent strike. 90088613PCGSAKCollectionadj..jpg.0273cd406362e2ac8b0bda8b3cbf2fd5.jpg

Website members are welcome to post any of their hand struck French gold coins ☺️.

 

 

  • Like 9
  • Clap 1
  • Heart Eyes 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huge congrats. @Al Kowsky!  Gotta love those gloriously elaborate late Capetian -early Valois motifs. 

For one, the combination of figural and architectural elements evokes some contemporary English monumental brasses.  This is of Henry Plantagenet (d. 1345), the descendant of a younger brother of Edward I.  His coat of arms continues the earlier heraldic 'label' for cadency.

1000https://effigiesandbrasses.com/712/967 

...But, well, not to put too fine a point on it, that's about as late Medieval as you can get.  Not sure if you can really refer to anywhere outside of Italy as Renaissance, this far back into the 14th century.  Your example continues the basic type going back to Charles IV (1322-1328).  (Cf. Duplessy, Royales 20.) 

(...And, sure, here's an earlier French jeton, riffing on the same motifs.  As early as the 14th and 15th centuries, jetons were imitating gold denominations, both in France and England.  With apologies; I still haven't evolved to the level of tweaking the size of .jps.)

 image.jpeg.9bb698261130a86d1202552d6fa3d1ad.jpeg

image.jpeg.758bb51719f28ab0fd37fd2201989801.jpeg

...But all of these pretty emphatically evince a distinct, later phase of Gothic, i. e., irreducibly medieval art.  In painting, the 14th century (into the 15th, depending on the region) is ubiquitously referred to as 'International Gothic.'  ...Really, if I wanted to be paranoid (--no worries; not there yet :<} ), I'd start thinking that people who post on this forum are just that (to quote myself:) terrified of 'Medieval' as a category. 

...But, maybe a brief reality check is called for.  It's like, it's only the entire interval between Classical /Ancient and Modern.  Extending for a mere millennium, with a kaleidescopic range of variation to match.

Sure, lately I've been posting medieval OPs under both 'Medieval' and 'World.'  But that's already starting to feel like being on the losing side of a diplomatic negotiation.  (Give an inch, they'll take two.)  Please, At Least use Both!  The Medievalists who post here are already ghettoized; we don't need any more help!  

...Anyway, congratulations on a magnificent example.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

Huge congrats. @Al Kowsky!  Gotta love those gloriously elaborate late Capetian -early Valois motifs. 

For one, the combination of figural and architectural elements evokes some contemporary English monumental brasses.  This is of Henry Plantagenet (d. 1345), the descendant of a younger brother of Edward I.  His coat of arms continues the earlier heraldic 'label' for cadency.

1000https://effigiesandbrasses.com/712/967 

...But, well, not to put too fine a point on it, that's about as late Medieval as you can get.  Not sure if you can really refer to anywhere outside of Italy as Renaissance, this far back into the 14th century.  Your example continues the basic type going back to Charles IV (1322-1328).  (Cf. Duplessy, Royales 20.) 

(...And, sure, here's an earlier French jeton, riffing on the same motifs.  As early as the 14th and 15th centuries, jetons were imitating gold denominations, both in France and England.  With apologies; I still haven't evolved to the level of tweaking the size of .jps.)

 image.jpeg.9bb698261130a86d1202552d6fa3d1ad.jpeg

image.jpeg.758bb51719f28ab0fd37fd2201989801.jpeg

...But all of these pretty emphatically evince a distinct, later phase of Gothic, i. e., irreducibly medieval art.  In painting, the 14th century (into the 15th, depending on the region) is ubiquitously referred to as 'International Gothic.'  ...Really, if I wanted to be paranoid (--no worries; not there yet :<} ), I'd start thinking that people who post on this forum are just that (to quote myself:) terrified of 'Medieval' as a category. 

...But, maybe a brief reality check is called for.  It's like, it's only the entire interval between Classical /Ancient and Modern.  Extending for a mere millennium, with a kaleidescopic range of variation to match.

Sure, lately I've been posting medieval OPs under both 'Medieval' and 'World.'  But that's already starting to feel like being on the losing side of a diplomatic negotiation.  (Give an inch, they'll take two.)  Please, At Least use Both!  The Medievalists who post here are already ghettoized; we don't need any more help!  

...Anyway, congratulations on a magnificent example.

JeandAcre, Thanks for posting the lovely illustration & interesting jeton ☺️. Thanks for sharing your relevant thoughts too 🤔. The word Medieval has evolved into some negative metaphors in modern English, but I promise not to "go Medieval" on you 🤣.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The word Medieval has evolved into some negative metaphors in modern English, but I promise not to "go Medieval" on you 🤣."

Many thanks, @Al Kowsky, for your gracious reply.  Not unanticipated, but no less appreciated.

...But, um, the contrasts between the increasingly emotive (vs. critical) connotations of current English usage, and valid cogitive content, have been getting more pronounced for decades.  Without wanting to be a kind of linguistic Luddite, along the lines of Jonathan Swift, I have to think that it behooves us to recognize BS when we see it.  What is medieval, in anything but an exemplary sense, about the religious and ethnic pluralism that existed across the northern Mediterranean from the 11th to the 13th centuries?  Or the scale of warfare, even proportionately to the population, that existed across northern as well as southern Europe, well into the 13th?  ...Now, we even have plagues to compare to, Oops, the Black Death.  It's feeling as though before too long, all we'll have to make us feel superior to them will be smart phones (...really?) and indoor plumbing.

Edited by JeandAcre
  • Yes 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/11/2024 at 7:23 AM, Al Kowsky said:

I was happy to win a French, early Renaissance gold coin in high Gothic style at CNG 124, pictured below.

FRANCE. Charles le Sage (the wise), 1364-1380. AV Franc a' pied: 3.77 gm, 27 mm, 8 h. Obverse: King standing in Gothic arch, holding a sword & Main de Justice scepter; 7 lis to right & left; KAROLVS * DI * GR FRANCORV * REX. Reverse: Cross treflee, pellet within angled quadrilob at center, cantoned with lis in 2nd & 4th quarters, crown in 1st & 3rd quarters; all within angled quadrelob, les in spandrels; XPC * VIHCIT * XPC * REGHAT * XPC * IMPERAT. NGC 6865696-018, MS62. 

NGC grading of these coins & most medieval coins seems rather pointless, since there is no evaluation for style, strike, & surface, as there is with ancient coins. It seems the only point is slabbing these coins is to make sure they haven't been clipped, altered, or have been mounted into jewelry. These coins are so thin it's nearly impossible to find one that is completely struck with all elements visible. I've seen many of these coins graded much higher than my coin that are totally inferior to my coin, see the comparison below.

PCGSMS644287.50PCGSMS622040AWK.jpg.8798b48ba8d36799f1b966cab2dcf9d9.jpg

The top coin was sold in the same auction as my coin & was graded MS64, it sold for $4,287.50. My coin pictured below it was graded was graded MS 62, & I paid $2,040.00. Now which of these two coins do you think was the better value 🤔? I think the bidder who won the top coin bought the plastic & not the coin 😏.

I agree that NGC grading and slabbing doesn't add much value.
And that's the thing about auctions, your results will vary, sometimes dramatically.  Different grades and different prices. 
And buyers' premiums do add up. Here's my oh-so-recent experience, and with the same coin type, I think. 

image.jpeg.9e5cbce666fcad5247964ace9f9a5402.jpeg FR.Valois.CharlesV.DuPlessy360A_CNG.jpg.8de4e2e86dea7982eaeaad9fa95c6069.jpg

France. Valois, Charles V le Sage. 13641380. AV Franc à pied (3.79 gm, 29mm, 2ʰ). Auth. 20 April 1365. King standing facing under Gothic arch in field of lis, holding sword and Main de Justice. KAROLVS ˣ DI ˣ GR FRAȠCORV ˣ RЄX.  / Cross tréflée with pellet in quadrilobe at center; lis in 1ˢᵗ and 4ᵗʰ qtrs, crown in 2ⁿᵈ and 3ʳᵈ; all within polylobe; lis in spandrels. XPI 🞯 VIИCIT 🞯 XPˀC 🞯 REGИAT 🞯 XPC 🞯 IMPERAT. MS 62 (EF). CNG EA 1550 #763. Duplessy 360; Ciani 457A; Friedberg 284. NGC encapsulation 6532187-043, graded MS 62.
 
My coin is rated MS 62. By comparison, I'll show you another coin sold a couple of months earlier, at a higher rating of MS 63. The buyer paid $1,700. I won't say that the price paid was wrong or worse. I paid 50% over the estimate, while the comparable below was just 13% over the estimate.  Maybe I am the one who overpaid. I don't feel remorse over my purchase (apart from buying a slabbed coin, I really do prefer them without all the plastic). We both got what we wanted, a little piece of medieval art and history. Imagery in gold. Symbols of power and wealth.
image.jpeg.c05494768cd965a120d4541c4352666d.jpeg
My friendly copilot had this to share about the reverse inscription: The inscription “XPI VIИCIT XP C REGИAT XPC IMPERAT” is written in Latin and appears on certain medieval French gold coins. Let’s break down its meaning: XPI: This abbreviation represents the Greek letters “Chi” (Χ) and “Rho” (Ρ), which are the first two letters of the word “Christos” (Χριστός) in Greek. It symbolizes Christ. VIИCIT: This word means “conquers.” XPC: Another abbreviation for “Christ.” REGИAT: Means “reigns.” IMPERAT: Signifies “commands.” Putting it all together, the inscription translates to: “Christ conquers, Christ reigns, Christ commands.” These coins were minted during the reign of Philip VI of France and reflect the religious and political context of the time. The use of Latin and religious symbolism was common in medieval European coinage, emphasizing the divine authority of rulers. 
Edited by Anaximander
Had to edit opening remarks. Just had to. And edited reverse legend translation for brevity.
  • Like 2
  • Yes 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/13/2024 at 8:40 PM, Anaximander said:

I agree that NGC grading and slabbing doesn't add much value.
And that's the thing about auctions, your results will vary, sometimes dramatically.  Different grades and different prices. 
And buyers' premiums do add up. Here's my oh-so-recent experience, and with the same coin type, I think. 

image.jpeg.9e5cbce666fcad5247964ace9f9a5402.jpeg FR.Valois.CharlesV.DuPlessy360A_CNG.jpg.8de4e2e86dea7982eaeaad9fa95c6069.jpg

France. Valois, Charles V le Sage. 13641380. AV Franc à pied (3.79 gm, 29mm, 2ʰ). Auth. 20 April 1365. King standing facing under Gothic arch in field of lis, holding sword and Main de Justice. KAROLVS ˣ DI ˣ GR FRAȠCORV ˣ RЄX.  / Cross tréflée with pellet in quadrilobe at center; lis in 1ˢᵗ and 4ᵗʰ qtrs, crown in 2ⁿᵈ and 3ʳᵈ; all within polylobe; lis in spandrels. XPI 🞯 VIИCIT 🞯 XPˀC 🞯 REGИAT 🞯 XPC 🞯 IMPERAT. MS 62 (EF). CNG EA 1550 #763. Duplessy 360; Ciani 457A; Friedberg 284. NGC encapsulation 6532187-043, graded MS 62.
 
My coin is rated MS 62. By comparison, I'll show you another coin sold a couple of months earlier, at a higher rating of MS 63. The buyer paid $1,700. I won't say that the price paid was wrong or worse. I paid 50% over the estimate, while the comparable below was just 13% over the estimate.  Maybe I am the one who overpaid. I don't feel remorse over my purchase (apart from buying a slabbed coin, I really do prefer them without all the plastic). We both got what we wanted, a little piece of medieval art and history. Imagery in gold. Symbols of power and wealth.
image.jpeg.c05494768cd965a120d4541c4352666d.jpeg
My friendly copilot had this to share about the reverse inscription: The inscription “XPI VIИCIT XP C REGИAT XPC IMPERAT” is written in Latin and appears on certain medieval French gold coins. Let’s break down its meaning: XPI: This abbreviation represents the Greek letters “Chi” (Χ) and “Rho” (Ρ), which are the first two letters of the word “Christos” (Χριστός) in Greek. It symbolizes Christ. VIИCIT: This word means “conquers.” XPC: Another abbreviation for “Christ.” REGИAT: Means “reigns.” IMPERAT: Signifies “commands.” Putting it all together, the inscription translates to: “Christ conquers, Christ reigns, Christ commands.” These coins were minted during the reign of Philip VI of France and reflect the religious and political context of the time. The use of Latin and religious symbolism was common in medieval European coinage, emphasizing the divine authority of rulers. 

Anaximander, Thanks for the info & translation ☺️.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...