Glebe Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, seth77 said: This revisement in dating the material also accounts for the second reign of Mankaphas in 1205. If Branas (as O, C&T note), Oberlander puts a date on it to ca. 1206-8. If Stara Zagora II has been treated similarly to the Issaccea and Silistra hoards with notes regarding just the 'official' (and I dare say easily attributable) coins then it is likely that the rest of the material would be similar to the hoards mentioned by Oberlander and Custurea&Talmatchi. Of course, all this adds a new instance of 'what ifs' to the problem, without actually solving anything. I don't know how many unidentified coins there were in the Stara Zagora hoard, but given that large numbers of Isaac II types were identified it's difficult to believe that there were similar numbers of Alexius III and Bulgarian imitatives in the hoard that almost completely disappeared into the unidentified basket. I therefore think (for the present at least) that I have to assume that this hoard terminated when it seems to have - at the beginning of the reign of Alexius III. Having said that though, it might seem unlikely that the cut-off occurred so close to the change of reign - but then it's got to occur sometime. In fact we might easily surmise that the uncertainty inherent in the change of reign may have triggered the hoard in the first place. Ross G. Edited July 23, 2022 by Glebe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glebe Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 11 hours ago, Simon said: Gentlemen, you are both in my consideration, experts on 13th plus century coinage, I have always valued the opinions of you both. I think the conclusion to this coin is that we have a more likely answer but not conclusive. @seth77 I do agree in your previous statement about the authors writing from the lands these coins are from, the problem is they are less known, rarely in English and difficult books to find. I use 2 different sets of books from Konstantine Duchov, one I cannot read because it is not in English, the other is a two set that is in English but starts in 1259, coins found in Bulgarian lands. Both books have been extremely helpful. Yesterday I purchased a small work from Oberlander-Tarnoveanu, based on your recommendation, I found it on Abe books from a reseller in Oregan. I could find no other works; it is regarding a 12th century hoard. @Glebe Questions for you, the last I read was that the clipping of coins was done at the end on Alexius III OR by Alexius IV and Isaac II 2nd reign, OR during the Latin rule. Who are you citing for such a precise time of clipping? A second clipping after 1220? Again, I was unfamiliar with that event, what is the source and what coins were affected? As of right I do not believe that Bulgarian Imitations (Faithful imitations.) were minted in Bulgaria, the latest literature I have read is Julian Bakers book, he mentions the theory they were minted by Alexius IV to pay the debt owed to the crusaders allowing him and his father to rule. I have also read the Latins created them at the same time as the Latin imitations. Also the thought they were coinage military minted from a traveling mint(Not likely because the sequence starts with Manuel?). Another question we will not get an answer to until we find a contemporary history of that coinage. His books by the way are excellent but I find some of his conclusions to be to based on thin ice. He cites Metcalf on most of his controversial findings and seems to have a disliking to Hendy. He was though a student of D.M. Metcalf so his bias is understandable. Actually my reference to the 1220 clippings was an unfortunate red herring. It refers of course to the polygonal clipping of the Latin types that started with the Latin types C and D of Constantinople and has nothing to do with the neat circular clipped imperial types of the 12th century. Ross G. . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jims,Coins Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 Minted at Constantinople during the reign of Alexius III between 8 April 1195 – 17 Jul 1203 Obv. Bust of Christ facing, beardless, wearing nimbus cr., pallium and colobium and raising r. hand in benediction; in l., scroll; to l., IC; to r., XC. Rev. Alexius (on l.) and St. Constantine, bearded and nimbate (on r.) both stg. facing, holding between them gl. cr. or, rarely, globus surmounted by patriarchal cross; each wears crown, divitision and loros and holds labarum (Emperor in r. hand, saint in l.). BCVS #2013. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted August 29, 2022 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted August 29, 2022 I have been doing a lot of reading on the topic of the coinage of Alexius III, ive been hunting down books that were recommended in Ross's articles and have been trying to find a clean example of SBCV-2013, I have looked through dozens of examples and that coin with the Comnenus legend is elusive. If someone has a clean or decisive example , please share. The OWK in the center of the reverse is a key as well as the KOM for the Comnenus family name. DOC has many variations but as others have pointed out new finds have been made since then for imitations and other variations. This really seems never ending. I never quite sure on examples I examine are variations or just poorly struck. I recently picked up this clipped example , we are uncertain if this was done during his rule or during Latin rule or during the 2nd reign of Isaac II and Alexius IV. This clipped example is attractive, 1.9gm and 18.9 mm It is a SBCV-2012 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted August 30, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) With your kind indulgence, Bravo to all of you! The communal erudition here easily matches its (Please, consider the source!) arcanity. It's always bracing to be reminded of how many fields are still so under-researched. Best of luck and, Carry on.... Edited August 30, 2022 by JeandAcre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted October 9, 2022 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted October 9, 2022 Did not realize this was another type, Alexius III with stars, noted in DOC. Still trying to find any example of SBCV-2013 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted October 9, 2022 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted October 9, 2022 I just finished a work trip that brought me to Ephesus Turkey, while there I visted the museum, this wall showed an abundance of Alexius III trachea. It was not listed as a hoard, so they could have been individual finds. The other groups were mentioned as being from hoards. This really shows the abundance of these coins. 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted January 16, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted January 16, 2023 Still no Hyperpyron for Alexius III but my 4th example of electrum aspron trachy. It is a nice one from Morton and Eden and from the Ex-Ambassador collection. It is very crisp but the face of Christ is blundered. 4.93gm They called it SBCV-2010 but it is SBCV- 2009. I did this photo without flash. 8 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted January 16, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 16, 2023 4.93 g? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted January 16, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted January 16, 2023 8 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: 4.93 g? Yes, that is the auction house weight, but I reweighed this morning, my scale is not as accurate, but it flickers from 4.9 down to 4.8. A quick look in DOC it seems to be heavy. Only one specimen they had weighed in at 4.75.gm The detail of the coin is very good , better than my other three examples, Christ face is blundered but other details seem from a nice die. Its size at the widest is 30.1mm. They put it as a SBCV-2010 but the legend around Christ makes it SBCV-2009. Any other details that seem off, please speak freely @TheTrachyEnjoyer . Like you, I am purest, I want my collection to remain authentic. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted January 16, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 16, 2023 The coin looks authentic to me. That is an incredible weight, nice find 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted April 22, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted April 22, 2023 Finally, a clear example of SBCV-2013 , I have dozens of this denomination from Alexius III, ( SBCV-2011,2012 and 2013) the coin listed as SBCV-2013 has the addition of the Comnenus added to his name. The way these coins are minted it is extremely difficult to find a n undisputable example, the legends are missing or incomplete. Most dealers and auction houses list coins as 2012/2013, rarely being to clearly identify it as one or the other. This coin is 2013. BTW it differs in the description in CLBC, the legend matches just not partially in center OWK. Alexius III Angelus-Comnenus, 1195-1203. Aspron Trachy (Bronze, 26 mm, 3.66 g, 6 h), Constantinople. KЄ ROHΘЄI / IC - XC Bust of Christ Pantocrator facing, raising right hand in benediction and holding scroll in left. Rev. Alexius and St. Constantine standing facing, holding between them globus cruciger, and each holding a labarum. DOC 3a. SB 2013. Good very fine. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted April 22, 2023 · Member Share Posted April 22, 2023 Palaeologan imitation/copy of this Alexius III Trachy. The reverse has coemperors Andronikos II and Michael IX instead of Alexius III and St Constantine. Its unpublished in the standard references 😁 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted April 27, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted April 27, 2023 On 4/22/2023 at 3:32 PM, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: Palaeologan imitation/copy of this Alexius III Trachy. The reverse has coemperors Andronikos II and Michael IX instead of Alexius III and St Constantine. Its unpublished in the standard references 😁 That coin is very cool and a nice find. Is it published anywhere? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted April 2 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted April 2 Its been a busy year, not enough time on coins. However, when I saw this, I added it to my collection. Not a silver coin like my original post but a silvered example that is very uncommon for this issue. I thought it would belong in this thread. Alexius III SBCV-2011v (Uncertain what variation) 21.62mm and only 1.67 grams. , Seems very light but the silvering is also very unusual, leads me away from it being an imitation. The obverse is difficult to make out but Nimbate bust of Christ. The rev Alex III and St Constantine. The silvering shows no indication of it being modern, so just a very rare find to have it silvered. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted April 3 · Member Share Posted April 3 On 4/27/2023 at 12:08 PM, Simon said: That coin is very cool and a nice find. Is it published anywhere? No. I think Gelbe has it on his website though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted April 3 · Member Share Posted April 3 On 4/2/2024 at 5:47 PM, Simon said: Its been a busy year, not enough time on coins. However, when I saw this, I added it to my collection. Not a silver coin like my original post but a silvered example that is very uncommon for this issue. I thought it would belong in this thread. Alexius III SBCV-2011v (Uncertain what variation) 21.62mm and only 1.67 grams. , Seems very light but the silvering is also very unusual, leads me away from it being an imitation. The obverse is difficult to make out but Nimbate bust of Christ. The rev Alex III and St Constantine. The silvering shows no indication of it being modern, so just a very rare find to have it silvered. Interesting! Congrats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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