Are most ancient Coins cleaned?

[MrZun]

So, i got a collection of Coins, and i learned about original luster that acts like a clock when the light is reflected, all my Coins have been cleaned in the past, including ones that have dirt on them. I talked to a Guy who know a Lot of numismatics, he said: most classical Coins and medieval ones have been cleaned in the past, might have been cleaned even 500 years ago or 1000 years ago, that people in the past did not cared about luster or patina, he said that more that 90% of Coins in the market were cleaned or polished at some point, is that true?

Also, a little question, does Coin that were polished in the past, when you polish one, It Just takes the dirt, patina and luster out, right? Or does It also makes the Coin lose metal and Weight?

 

As you can see from this video, my trajan denarius has dirt, but he said "It probably has been cleaned and perhaps It was lost in the dirt and found again, Its Impossible to know"

[Sulla80]

Q: most classical Coins and medieval ones have been cleaned in the past, might have been cleaned even 500 years ago or 1000 years ago, that people in the past did not cared about luster or patina, he said that more that 90% of Coins in the market were cleaned or polished at some point, is that true?

There are probably some differences across types of coins, but these seems about right - most coins have had some sort of "cleaning"

Q: Also, a little question, does Coin that were polished in the past, when you polish one, It Just takes the dirt, patina and luster out, right? Or does It also makes the Coin lose metal and Weight?

Again depends on the specific coin - but often you might remove horn silver and encrustations that can reduce the weight of the coin.  "polishing" in general is not great - you will see some ancient coins that are slabbed and marked as "brushed" - this can be from heavily rubbing with brushes or cloth in a way that has damaged the surface.  Here are my notes on one of my cleaning experiments:

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/a-chemistry-experiment

"luster" is a word that I've never really understood properly - for me this just means "good surface", "good metal", not pitted, not crystalized, not rough, maybe a little shine showing through the patina or tarnish, but can also be some risk that this means "brushed:", "polished", and other negatives...

your video didn't work for me:

My favorite coins give at least the illusion that they haven't been cleaned in a long time...a bright shiney coin is unattractive to me.

 

Edited April 20 by Sulla80

[MrZun]

33 minutes ago, Sulla80 said:

Q: most classical Coins and medieval ones have been cleaned in the past, might have been cleaned even 500 years ago or 1000 years ago, that people in the past did not cared about luster or patina, he said that more that 90% of Coins in the market were cleaned or polished at some point, is that true?

There are probably some differences across types of coins, but these seems about right - most coins have had some sort of "cleaning"

Q: Also, a little question, does Coin that were polished in the past, when you polish one, It Just takes the dirt, patina and luster out, right? Or does It also makes the Coin lose metal and Weight?

Again depends on the specific coin - but often you might remove horn silver and encrustations that can reduce the weight of the coin.  "polishing" in general is not great - you will see some ancient coins that are slabbed and marked as "brushed" - this can be from heavily rubbing with brushes or cloth in a way that has damaged the surface.  Here are my notes on one of my cleaning experiments:

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/a-chemistry-experiment

"luster" is a word that I've never really understood properly - for me this just means "good surface", "good metal", not pitted, not crystalized, not rough, maybe a little shine showing through the patina or tarnish, but can also be some risk that this means "brushed:", "polished", and other negatives...

your video didn't work for me:

My favorite coins give at least the illusion that they haven't been cleaned in a long time...a bright shiney coin is unattractive to me.

 

Here is some images

[John Conduitt]

All ancient and most medieval coins have been cleaned because they came out of the ground. How much cleaning was needed depends on what was on them. Some have very little but dirt on them while others have very strongly attached mineral deposits from whatever was around them. So they might be cleaned lightly in distilled water or they might be cleaned in strong chemicals and/or be brushed or even have the deposits removed with a scalpel. Any of this can damage the coin if not done properly. It can remove metal but it shouldn't.

Lustre is the particular shine you get on a freshly minted coin. It makes a radial pattern you can see when you turn it in the light. This cannot be added later, so if it gets cleaned off, it is lost. It's not likely ancient coins will have it because either they were not buried directly out of the mint (it is lost when a coin circulates) or they have needed cleaning. In fact, an uncleaned coin is still likely to have developed toning or a patina, and the lustre will be hidden under that. (You do not want to clean off the toning or patina if it has it). But it can be visible.

Edited April 20 by John Conduitt

[Heliodromus]

1 hour ago, MrZun said:

Also, a little question, does Coin that were polished in the past, when you polish one, It Just takes the dirt, patina and luster out, right? Or does It also makes the Coin lose metal and Weight?

It depends on the metal.

Gold is mostly non-reactive, so you are not losing anything by surface cleaning.

On silver coins, toning is basically surface level, but it still involves a reaction with the metal - creation of silver oxide/sulphide/chloride etc. If you remove this then you are removing a small amount of silver. Polishing is a lot worse than just removing toning by chemical means, since it implies abrasion, and the coin will never be the same.

On bronze coins, patina is more than skin-deep, and the goal of cleaning is to remove surface dirt/etc deposits without touching the patina. If you remove the patina from a bronze coin (e.g. by electrolysis) then you will lose a noticeable amount of the coin itself - for some worn coins an appreciable amount of the surviving design has become part of the patina layer.

[Sulla80]

Any coin that has survived ~1900 years and is readable is in my view a nice coin.  This is not a "high value coin" - I'd say <<$50 and it does show signs of cleaning that have removed tarnish and revealed the rough surface and pitting underneath.  I would guess some form of electrochemical cleaning applied not long ago.

Edited April 20 by Sulla80

[MrZun]

1 hour ago, Sulla80 said:

Any coin that has survived ~1900 years and is readable is in my view a nice coin.  This is not a "high value coin" - I'd say <<$50 and it does show signs of cleaning that have removed tarnish and revealed the rough surface and pitting underneath.  I would guess some form of electrochemical cleaning applied not long ago.

You really think that my Coins has a valeu of less than 50 dollars?

[John Conduitt]

14 minutes ago, MrZun said:

You really think that my Coins has a valeu of less than 50 dollars?

No. RIC II Trajan 344? Definitely more than $50. But it's not an expensive coin.

Edited April 20 by John Conduitt

[MrZun]

3 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

No. RIC II Trajan 344? Definitely more than $50. But it's not an expensive coin.

The RIC is 343

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

 

Unless it's something like this, and even this appears to have had a tiny amount of cleaning, virtually all ancient coins have had some level of cleaning.

[Sulla80]

3 hours ago, MrZun said:

You really think that my Coins has a valeu of less than 50 dollars?

one sold 2/26/2024 for 46 Euro https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12272791, not including buyers fees - for me it is also the rough surface that puts the value in the <$50 range. (agree with RIC 343 - draped)

 

another one https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11563479 10/6/2023 for 44 Euro, not including buyers fees.

 

Edited April 20 by Sulla80

[panzerman]

I would think that most of the FDC/ MS ones have never been cleaned/ polished/ brushed. Most were probably collected/ put in safe storage back in the era they were struck. Shipwreck coins are professionally conserved like the SS-Central America hoard of 1857-S Double Eagles/

 

Here are two exs....

1/ From Luz shipwreck (Colonial Chile AV 8 Escudos 1751-So Santiago Mint/ Fernando VI 1746-59

2/ Aureus ND (305AD) Ticinum Mint Constantius I Chlorus 305-6AD

[Sulla80]

8 hours ago, panzerman said:

I would think that most of the FDC/ MS ones have never been cleaned/ polished/ brushed. Most were probably collected/ put in safe storage back in the era they were struck. Shipwreck coins are professionally conserved like the SS-Central America hoard of 1857-S Double Eagles/

Beautiful coins as always @panzerman, and I would agree that especially with gold coins there is higher probability that they were stored more carefully and there is a higher likelihood of finding a coin with an undisturbed surface as @Heliodromus notes: "Gold is mostly non-reactive".

[John Conduitt]

22 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

one sold 2/26/2024 for 46 Euro https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12272791, not including buyers fees - for me it is also the rough surface that puts the value in the <$50 range. (agree with RIC 343 - draped)

 

another one https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11563479 10/6/2023 for 44 Euro, not including buyers fees.

 

Yes although that means you'd have to pay EUR60-70 to get either of those in your hand, which is USD65-75.

Edited April 21 by John Conduitt

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Zurqieh had offered an uncleaned Heraclius solidus, which had hard sand stuck to the harder-to-get places.

Edited April 21 by Nerosmyfavorite68