Dealers who market slabs

[Valentinian]

As a long-time ancient coin collector, I am still puzzled by dealers who market slabs instead of the coins they contain. I am equally puzzled by the buyers.

Of course, dealers are free to try to sell their coins however they like (short of misrepresentation), but why do some emphasize pictures of the entire slab making it impossible to see the coin until a few clicks and zooms magnify it?  There is a new VCoins dealer (Numistrade) whose coins for sale are all slabbed, high grade, and expensive (mostly over $1000). The photos you see first are of the entire slab. With my eyes I can't see the coin which is only a small part of the image. I can click on the image and zoom in to enlarge it, but the (irritating) way vcoins images are enlarged I can't easily see a big image. And, if one side is enlarged enough to see well the other side is outside the window because the slabs are so wide compared to the coins. VCoins doesn't enlarge the window to fit the larger image--I wonder why not?. 

It seems to me the seller is marketing the slabs, not the coins themselves. Okay. So be it. But does that mean his buyers are buying the slabs, not the coins?  

I admit there are good reasons for some ancient coins to be slabbed. But, it is possible to create an image that emphasizes the coin (which will show the white prongs that hold it). So, I imagine there much be buyers who prefer the slab to the coin. 

How do you interpret showing the slab first and foremost?
 

[John Conduitt]

I think it's because there are three core reasons to buy a slab:
- you do not know enough to be sure you're buying a real coin, so you need someone else to validate it.
- you are buying with more than one eye on the future resale value. Perhaps even solely for investment.
- you collect grades and like being able to say you have one of the 'finest known'.

In all cases the first thing you want to see is the slab and the grade on the slab. If you're buying for the grade, there's no point even looking at a coin with a lower score. Heritage have a filter on their auctions that allows you to do this. In all cases, but especially the last two, you do not even need to see the coin. You just need to know someone has said it is a coin and it has a particular score. Eye appeal is secondary if it matters at all.

While I don't understand that way of collecting, there are parallels in what I buy. Sometimes, I buy coins that fit my collecting goals but do not have eye appeal. Space fillers and coins I assume I will upgrade if I can afford it. That I have an example, any example, is enough to buy it. I'm therefore putting the label ahead of what the coin looks like. The difference is that at some point I imagine I will get a better one, at which point I will look more carefully at the coin.

[sand]

@Valentinian Yes, I agree, that it is an inconvenience, and it creates more work for me as a buyer or bidder, to view a coin, when a dealer features a photo of the entire slab, rather than a photo clipped to show only the coin. I've seen this, on multiple sites, for both fixed price sales, and for auctions. If the sales/auction site only allows 2 photos, then I could imagine, why a seller or auction house would have photos of the entire slab, because I would want to look at the entire slab, before I bought or bid. But, if the sales/auction site allows at least 4 photos, then it seems like, the seller or auction house would feature photos of the coin, clipped to show only the coin. As you say, it's almost as if, the slab is more important than the coin. Or, perhaps the seller or auction house didn't want to take the time, to clip the photos. Also, it seems like, a sales or auction house, would always allow at least 4 photos. 2 clipped photos for both sides of the coin, and 2 photos for both sides of the entire slab. If I remember correctly, Vcoins allows at least 4 photos. But, some sales or auction sites, seem to allow only 2 photos, for some reason. All of what I just said, is just what I remember, from looking at various sales and auction sites. But, my memory could be incorrect.

Edited April 9 by sand

[Deinomenid]

34 minutes ago, Valentinian said:

But, it is possible to create an image that emphasizes the coin (which will show the white prongs that hold it

Yes, absolutely. Heritage - at least for  me - defaults  to this

https://coins.ha.com/itm/ancients/greek/ancients-sicily-syracuse-agathocles-317-289-bc-el-50-or-25-litrai-15mm-355-gm-9h-ngc-au-5-5-4-5-fine-style-edge-marks-/a/3115-32013.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

 

 

 

[DonnaML]

I think such dealers emphasize the slabs because it's impossible to take a really good photo of the slabbed coin itself. So unless a photo is available of the coin as it looked prior to slabbing, a photo of the slab is the best alternative -- at least for potential buyers who are impressed by the very fact that the coin is slabbed. The inability to take a decent photo is one of my primary objections to slabs, besides the fact that one can't even really see a slabbed coin that well in hand. Never mind in a photo. 

[Ed Snible]

Those aren’t his own pictures, they are from the NGC Slab Verification page, e.g.

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6060752-001/NGCAncients/ vs https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/numistrade/329/product/lydia_el_hecte_walwet_c620560_bc_ngc_ch_xf_strike_55_surface_35/2037552/Default.aspx

NGC slab photos are not the best, perhaps because improving those photos would reduce interest in their PhotoVision service, and its $8 fee.

With their current photos I can't see the stab, its grade, or the coin.  A montage such as this might give the buyer a rough idea of the size, grade, and the coin itself.

[sand]

8 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I think such dealers emphasize the slabs because it's impossible to take a really good photo of the slabbed coin itself. So unless a photo is available of the coin as it looked prior to slabbing, a photo of the slab is the best alternative -- at least for potential buyers who are impressed by the very fact that the coin is slabbed. The inability to take a decent photo is one of my primary objections to slabs, besides the fact that one can't even really see a slabbed coin that well in hand. Never mind in a photo. 

That's a good point. I agree, that it is difficult, to take good photos, of a coin in a slab. However, some sellers seem to take okay photos, of coins within slabs. I would prefer, for a seller to at least try to take zoomed in photos, of a coin within a slab, and feature the photos which are clipped to show only the coin. Especially, when I'm browsing through a gallery view of many coins, it's difficult to even see a coin, to decide if I want to look more closely at the listing of the coin, if the featured photo shows the entire slab, because the actual coin looks so small, in such a photo. Here are some examples, which I found, of sellers, who feature okay photos, of a coin within a slab, which are zoomed in on the coin, and which are clipped to show only the coin.

THESE ARE NOT MY COINS.

[Bonshaw]

I don't have any comment on why the slab should be shown in preference to the coin, obviously the coin should be more important from the buyer's perspective. But there is one possible reason that some dealers and auction houses may prefer to sell slabs: the guarantee. Most reputable dealers and auction houses guarantee unslabbed coins against being modern forgeries. The terms of that guarantee vary widely, but it is still a guarantee, and carries with it some cost.

Some reputable dealers and auction house do not guarantee slabbed coins against being modern forgeries. They make the (valid) point that it is hard to do the inspection that would be necessary to make that guarantee once the coin is slabbed, but it is a significant cost savings for them to not be liable for such a guarantee. There may be an auction house that guarantees even slabbed coins for authenticity, but if so, I don't know which one.

In the case of moderns, NGC or PCGS will provide their own guarantee that coins are genuine, so this is just moving the liability from the dealer/auction house to the slabbing company. In the case of NGC Ancients, however, they do *not* guarantee the authenticity of ancient coins. They do, however, promise to do a careful job in an expert evaluation of authenticity, and they probably catch the most egregious forgeries at least. So if you buy a slabbed ancient from an auction house or dealer, you might not be getting any authenticity guarantee at all (check terms & conditions), but are swapping that for the confidence of at least having had an NGC expert look at it, which is worth something.

I can see why some dealers and auction houses would prefer to sell slabbed coins, since it releases them from this liability.

I know of at least one slabbed ancient that I am pretty sure is a forgery, and that sold (for a pretty sum) at auction. I assume that there are lots more. Caveat emptor in buying slabbed ancients.

Edited April 9 by Bonshaw
I edited this post to soften the statement that auction houses don't guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins. Apparently some do. Check terms & conditions.

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, Bonshaw said:

So if you buy a slabbed ancient from an auction house or dealer, you probably aren't getting any authenticity guarantee at all, but are swapping that for the confidence of at least having had an NGC expert look at it, which is worth something.

Yes I don't see how having an NGC expert look at a coin for 20 seconds (and not put their money where their mouth is) can ever be worth more than a guarantee. So the slab actually decreases the value by swapping the latter for the former.

Who would be out of pocket if the slabbed ancient you bought from Heritage for $100,000 turned out to be fake? Heritage won't guarantee it because they can't see inside the slab. NGC will not guarantee it because 'all ancients are different'. So does that mean you just lose your money? If the auction house thinks it has removed its liability, then they are being disingenuous by offering slabs.

The argument for slabs is almost always based on authenticity. You even hear people say that you should buy anything expensive in a slab since there are so many fakes. But on this basis, you shouldn't buy an expensive coin in a slab if you do not already know it isn't fake.

Edited April 9 by John Conduitt

[KenDorney]

I wont get into the merits of slabbing (I'm not a fan).  But as to how the coins are photographed and presented on VCoins, we have a new requirement and that is that if a coin is graded the slab must be shown.  I'm guessing its to ensure the slab is correct and genuine and buyers can look the serial number up to confirm.  In the past I've just listed the number in the lot description but going forward I will do my usual side by side obverse and reverse with the pic of the slab as an additional photo.

[sand]

31 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

going forward I will do my usual side by side obverse and reverse with the pic of the slab as an additional photo.

I like that. As a buyer, I would even like to see, a photo of the front of the entire slab, and a photo of the back of the entire slab.

[Bonshaw]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Yes I don't see how having an NGC expert look at a coin for 20 seconds (and not put their money where their mouth is) can ever be worth more than a guarantee. So the slab actually decreases the value by swapping the latter for the former.

This guarantee issue may be worth exploring a little more. I have done an extensive Lydian Weidauer XV electrum trite die study, which is why I have strong opinions in this area. I have carefully tracked the provenance of the suspicious slabbed coin I mentioned in my previous post. This coin was previously auctioned by CNG back in 2006, so presumably back then it had a guarantee of authenticity, but I don't have access to the CNG terms and conditions from 2006.

The coin was then slabbed, and auctioned by Heritage in 2017, but was left unsold.

Then it was put up for auction on heritage again on Jan. 7, 2018, and sold for $6,600 here:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/ancients/greek/ancients-lydian-kingdom-alyattes-or-walwet-ca-610-561-bc-el-third-stater-or-trite-13mm-475-gm-ngc-au-5-5-4-5/a/3061-29208.s

Here is a closeup of this (slabbed) coin directly from NGC:

    

I can say that, from a die-matching perspective, this coin makes no sense at all. The front is at least an attempt at a Weidauer XV Type C obverse (but suspicious in several ways in comparison to other Obverse dies). Every single Weidauer XV trite was stamped with the same two reverse punches (at different stages of wear), but these two packpunches are different, much more like those used in other trite series. This is either a historically important coin, or a forgery, and the other iffy aspects of the obverse die push me towards forgery.

Now here is the question: this coin was sold by CNG back in 2006, so presumably back then, it carried the CNG guarantee.

The owner, or at least the owner in 2017  (presumably completely unaware of these questions), had it slabbed by NGC, who inspected and gave it their seal of authenticity, but no guarantee. Did that void the original CNG guarantee, especially since we are selling away from the original buyer?  

The coin failed to sell in 2017 (perhaps some folks thought it looked suspicious), but then sold in 2018 for $6,600, which is a princely sum for a Weidauer XV trite back then!  The luster of this coin really stands out strongly, this isn't the sort of luster you see on one of these trites, so this presumably appealed to the buyer.

So NGC doesn't stand by this coin. Does Heritage? Could the present owner go back to CNG?  Surely not if they didn't even possess the invoice.

So in this case, the slab distanced the owner from a previous guarantee.

Do you think that Heritage would offer a refund, or wash their hands of this since they didn't look in the slab?  

 

 

Edited April 9 by Bonshaw

[idesofmarch01]

1 hour ago, Bonshaw said:

Most reputable dealers and auction house do not guarantee slabbed coins against being modern forgeries.

I'm not sure that this assertion is correct.  For example, here is part of CNG's Terms and Conditions for purchases from their coin shop:

II. TERMS OF SALE (ORDERS FROM COIN SHOP)

1. General Information. The point of sale for all items online is Lancaster, Pennsylvania. All orders are sent from Pennsylvania. 

2. Guaranty and Return Privilege. All items are guaranteed genuine. Any coin order may be returned within fourteen days of receipt for any reason. Coins that have been encapsulated ("slabbed") by a grading and/or authentication service may not be returned for any reason, including authenticity, if they have been removed from the encapsulation ("slab"). The customer shall bear the cost of returning all items and shall insure them for their full value. Books are not sent on approval and are not subject to return.

I've highlighted in bold their guarantee of authenticity.  Notably, it does NOT exclude encapsulated items unless the coin has been removed from the slab; nor does it have a time limit.  There is similar language in the Terms and Conditions of every auction house from which I purchase, although I rarely find myself bidding on encapsulated coins.  Having dealt with hundreds of written contracts during my life (although I'm not an attorney), I personally would interpret this language as a non-expiring guarantee of authenticity for encapsulated coins -- the fact that it specifically uses the phrase "including authenticity" when referring to encapsulated coins makes it even more likely that slabbed coins are guaranteed to be authentic.

To me, it doesn't make sense that an auction house wouldn't guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed coin.  Personally, I would never bid on a coin, slabbed or not, whose authenticity isn't guaranteed by the auction house or dealer, and I assume most other collectors would feel the same.

7 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

Now here is the question: this coin was sold by CNG back in 2006, so presumably back then, it carried the CNG guarantee.

The owner, or at least the owner in 2107 (presumably completely unaware of these questions), had it slabbed by NGC, who inspected and gave it their seal of authenticity, but no guarantee. Did that void the original CNG guarantee, especially since we are selling away from the original buyer?  

The coin failed to sell in 2017 (perhaps some folks thought it looked suspicious), but then sold in 2018 for $6,600, which is a princely sum for a Weidauer XV trite back then!  The luster of this coin really stands out strongly, this isn't the sort of luster you see on one of these trites, so this presumably appealed.

So neither NGC nor Heritage stand by this coin. Could the present owner go back to CNG?  Surely not if they didn't even possess the invoice.

 In response to the questions in your latest post, I would defer to DonnaML or any other attorneys on this site, but assuming that CNG had the same or a similar clause about authenticity in its 2006 T&Cs, then the current owner could possibly force a return to the 2018 seller via an expert's opinion that the coin is a forgery, and thereafter the 2018 seller (if he/she is the next most recent purchaser) could force a return to the 2006 purchaser, who would then make a claim to CNG.  My guess is that the authenticity would end up being argued between CNG and any expert's opinion of non-authenticity, but that's a different matter.  

 

 

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, Bonshaw said:

This guarantee issue may be worth exploring a little more. I have done an extensive Lydian Weidauer XV electrum trite die study, which is why I have strong opinions in this area. I have carefully tracked the provenance of the suspicious slabbed coin I mentioned in my previous post. This coin was previously auctioned by CNG back in 2006, so presumably back then it had a guarantee of authenticity, but I don't have access to the CNG terms and conditions from 2006.

The coin was then slabbed, and auctioned by Heritage in 2017, but was left unsold.

Then it was put up for auction on heritage again on Jan. 7, 2018, and sold for $6,600 here:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/ancients/greek/ancients-lydian-kingdom-alyattes-or-walwet-ca-610-561-bc-el-third-stater-or-trite-13mm-475-gm-ngc-au-5-5-4-5/a/3061-29208.s

Here is a closeup of this (slabbed) coin directly from NGC:

    

I can say that, from a die-matching perspective, this coin makes no sense at all. The front is at least an attempt at a Weidauer XV Type C obverse (but suspicious in several ways in comparison to other Obverse dies). Every single Weidauer XV trite was stamped with the same two reverse punches (at different stages of wear), but these two packpunches are different, much more like those used in other trite series. This is either a historically important coin, or a forgery, and the other iffy aspects of the obverse die push me towards forgery.

Now here is the question: this coin was sold by CNG back in 2006, so presumably back then, it carried the CNG guarantee.

The owner, or at least the owner in 2017  (presumably completely unaware of these questions), had it slabbed by NGC, who inspected and gave it their seal of authenticity, but no guarantee. Did that void the original CNG guarantee, especially since we are selling away from the original buyer?  

The coin failed to sell in 2017 (perhaps some folks thought it looked suspicious), but then sold in 2018 for $6,600, which is a princely sum for a Weidauer XV trite back then!  The luster of this coin really stands out strongly, this isn't the sort of luster you see on one of these trites, so this presumably appealed to the buyer.

So neither NGC nor Heritage stand by this coin. Could the present owner go back to CNG?  Surely not if they didn't even possess the invoice.

So in this case, the slab distanced the owner from a previous guarantee.

Do you think that Heritage would offer a refund, or wash their hands of this since they didn't look in the slab?  

In theory, it goes back to CNG, but only if you can trace the owners and paperwork, and motivate them all to do so. CNG's guarantee is with their purchaser, not anyone afterwards. Firstly, Heritage would have to accept it is their problem, which they don't need to do, and you then have to rely on each stage being refunded by the previous to get back to CNG (who can then go after their consignor). If you can also get them all to accept that it is a fake, given the TPG said it was genuine.

Edited April 9 by John Conduitt

[Bonshaw]

 

@idesofmarch01 These are good points, but I have never seen CNG sell a slabbed coin. Do they?

But you have now made me question my impression that other auction houses like Heritage do not guarantee authenticity of slabbed coins. I know that they don't grade condition, or allow returns, of slabbed coins, but I'm going to go read a bunch of Terms & Conditions now and see if I understood this correctly.

Let me say that I *really* love this forum. There is so much expertise here. If I learn that Heritage, for instance, actually does guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins, that will be great information, and will change my behavior.

 

[John Conduitt]

28 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

 

@idesofmarch01 These are good points, but I have never seen CNG sell a slabbed coin. Do they?

But you have now made me question my impression that other auction houses like Heritage do not guarantee authenticity of slabbed coins. I know that they don't grade condition, or allow returns, of slabbed coins, but I'm going to go read a bunch of Terms & Conditions now and see if I understood this correctly.

Let me say that I *really* love this forum. There is so much expertise here. If I learn that Heritage, for instance, actually does guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins, that will be great information, and will change my behavior.

 

Yes I looked at this some time ago.

Heritage:
"COINS & CURRENCY TERM G: Since we cannot examine encapsulated coins or notes, they are sold “as is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer shall not be liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any encapsulated collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the service certifying the collectible."

Even worse (and seemingly unnecessary):

"Non-Auction Buy Now Terms & Conditions Return Policy
All orders come with an unconditional seven-day return privilege with the exception of graded Make Offer to Owner items. We're not satisfied until you are.
Items graded through the grading companies below and sold through the Make Offer to Owner program are not returnable.
Coins, Token & Medals: NGC & PCGS"

Edited April 9 by John Conduitt

[idesofmarch01]

1 minute ago, John Conduitt said:

Yes I looked at this some time ago.

Heritage:
"COINS & CURRENCY TERM G: Since we cannot examine encapsulated coins or notes, they are sold “as is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer shall not be liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any encapsulated collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the service certifying the collectible."

Even worse (and seemingly unnecessary):

"Non-Auction Buy Now Terms & Conditions Return Policy
All orders come with an unconditional seven-day return privilege with the exception of graded Make Offer to Owner items. We're not satisfied until you are.
Items graded through the grading companies below and sold through the Make Offer to Owner program are not returnable.
Coins, Token & Medals: NGC & PCGS"

I, too, find Heritage's T&Cs confusing and contradictory.  In addition to the excerpt you quote above (TERM G) they also include the following:

COINS and CURRENCY TERM D Coins sold referencing a third-party grading service are sold
“as is” without any express or implied warranty, except for a guarantee by Auctioneer that they
are genuine. Certain warranties may be available from the grading services and the Bidder is
referred to them for further details: Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), P.O. Box 4776,
Sarasota, FL 34230, http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp; Professional
Coin Grading Service (PCGS), PO Box 9458, Newport Beach, CA 92658, http://www.pcgs.com/
guarantee.html; ANACS, 6555 S. Kenton St. Ste. 303, Englewood, CO 80111; and Independent
Coin Grading Co. (ICG), 7901 East Belleview Ave., Suite 50, Englewood, CO 80111.

What does the phrase "referencing a third-party grading service" mean?  I would reasonably interpret it to include slabbed coins, since the T&Cs do not otherwise clarify this phrase.  I would be wary purchasing a slabbed ancient coin from them, unless I clarified this issue directly, in writing, with an authorized representative of Heritage.

[John Conduitt]

4 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

I, too, find Heritage's T&Cs confusing and contradictory.  In addition to the excerpt you quote above (TERM G) they also include the following:

COINS and CURRENCY TERM D Coins sold referencing a third-party grading service are sold
“as is” without any express or implied warranty, except for a guarantee by Auctioneer that they
are genuine. Certain warranties may be available from the grading services and the Bidder is
referred to them for further details: Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), P.O. Box 4776,
Sarasota, FL 34230, http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp; Professional
Coin Grading Service (PCGS), PO Box 9458, Newport Beach, CA 92658, http://www.pcgs.com/
guarantee.html; ANACS, 6555 S. Kenton St. Ste. 303, Englewood, CO 80111; and Independent
Coin Grading Co. (ICG), 7901 East Belleview Ave., Suite 50, Englewood, CO 80111.

What does the phrase "referencing a third-party grading service" mean?  I would reasonably interpret it to include slabbed coins, since the T&Cs do not otherwise clarify this phrase.  I would be wary purchasing a slabbed ancient coin from them, unless I clarified this issue directly, in writing, with an authorized representative of Heritage.

Yes I noticed that. Every term is about TPGs and whether or not there is a guarantee, and yet in the end, I have no idea.

You then have:
"NO WARRANTY, WHETHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, IS MADE WITH RESPECT TO ANY DESCRIPTION CONTAINED IN THIS AUCTION OR ANY SECOND OPINE."

Obviously, the problem with guaranteeing something is genuine but not the description of what it is you are guaranteeing is that you do not know what they are saying it is a genuine example of.

Edited April 9 by John Conduitt

[Bonshaw]

This is complex and confusing, I see. I went back and edited my original post to make sure that it doesn't cause confusion, including the explanation for the edit ("I edited this post to soften the statement that auction houses don't guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins. Apparently some do. Check terms & conditions.").

The rest of this discussion is fascinating.

I agree with @John Conduitt and @idesofmarch01 above that the only specific statement Heritage makes about encapsulated coins says that they "may not be returned for any reason," whereas "coins sold referencing a third-party grading service" have a "guarantee by the Auctioneer that they are genuine", but don't mention slabbed coins specifically. 

And having now reviewed the Heritage Auction T&Cs, I have to act under the presumption that they don't guarantee authenticity of slabbed coins, unless clarified further.  I definitely would want this clarified in writing before buying a $100k slabbed coin from heritage. That will never happen, of course, but the principle stands.

Edited April 9 by Bonshaw

[John Conduitt]

19 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

This is complex and confusing, I see. I went back and edited my original post to make sure that it doesn't cause confusion, including the explanation for the edit ("I edited this post to soften the statement that auction houses don't guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins. Apparently some do. Check terms & conditions.").

The rest of this discussion is fascinating.

I definitely would want this clarified in writing before buying a $100k slabbed coin from heritage. That will never happen, of course, but the principle stands.

This is Stacks Bowers (the other auction house that routinely slabs coins):

"10. DISCLAIMER AND WARRANTIES. NO WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IS MADE OR IMPLIED ON ANY LOT. NO WARRANTY, WHETHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, IS MADE WITH RESPECT TO ANY LOT EXCEPT FOR WARRANTY OF TITLE, AND IN THE CASE OF TITLE, AUCTIONEER IS SELLING ONLY THAT RIGHT OR TITLE TO THE LOT THAT THE CONSIGNOR MAY HAVE AS OF THE AUCTION SALE DATE. ALL LOTS ARE SOLD “AS IS” AND WITH ALL FAULTS. PURCHASER HEREBY ASSUMES ALL RISKS CONCERNING AND RELATED TO THE GRADING, QUALITY, DESCRIPTION, CONDITION, AND PROVENANCE OF A LOT.

a.  COINS AND CURRENCY LISTED IN THIS CATALOG AS GRADED AND ENCAPSULATED BY PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, PCGS CURRENCY, PMG, PCGS BANKNOTE GRADING, CMC OR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY GRADING SERVICE ARE SOLD “AS-IS” EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY SET FORTH HEREIN AND MAY NOT BE RETURNED FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER BY ANY BUYER. ALL THIRD PARTY GRADING SERVICE GUARANTEES, INCLUDING AUTHENTICITY, ARE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE THIRD PARTY GRADING SERVICE AND NOT WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES OF THE AUCTIONEER. BUYERS SHOULD CONTACT THESE THIRD PARTY GRADING SERVICES DIRECTLY WITH RESPECT TO ANY CLAIMS OR QUESTIONS THEY MAY HAVE CONCERNING THEIR GUARANTEES AND WARRANTIES. BUYERS ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT AUCTIONEER IS NOT BOUND BY OR LIABLE FOR ANY OPINION OR CERTIFCATION BY ANY THIRD PARTY GRADING SERVICE.

b. In the case of non-certified coins and currency that have neither been examined by the Buyer prior to the Auction Sale, nor purchased by the Buyer or Buyer’s agent at the auction sale, if it is determined in a review by Stack’s Bowers that there is a material error in the catalog description of a non-certified coin or currency, such lot may be returned, provided written notice is received by Stack’s Bowers no later than seventy-two (72) hours of delivery of the lots in question, and such lots are returned and received by Stack’s Bowers, in their original, sealed containers, no later than fourteen (14) calendar days after delivery, in the same condition the lot(s) were delivered to the Buyer, time being of the essence. Non-certified coins and currency that have been either examined by the Buyer prior to the Auction Sale or purchased by the Buyer or Buyer’s agent at the Auction Sale, will not be granted return privileges, except for authenticity.

c. All non-certified coins and currency are guaranteed to be genuine."

For raw coins it is very clear. For slabbed coins, it seems to rely on there being a TPG guarantee of authenticity in the first place.

Whether or not this is an intentional omission by Heritage and Stacks, I don't know. It seems that the fact that the authenticity of ancients is not guaranteed by the TPGs has not been accounted for in the terms.

Edited April 9 by John Conduitt

[Bonshaw]

GreatCollections is another auction house that only sells slabbed coins. They mostly do moderns but do have a decent number of ancients. They are absolutely clear:

ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD "AS IS" AND WITH ALL FAULTS. PURCHASER HEREBY ASSUMES ALL RISKS CONCERNING AND RELATED TO THE GRADING, QUALITY, DESCRIPTION, CONDITION, AUTHENTICITY, AND PROVENANCE OF AN ITEM.

But they reassure you that the third-party grading services will: "Since the 1980s (and even before), there have been third-party grading companies which will independently assign grades to coins.  As part of their service, they will encapsulate the coin in a tamper-evident holder and also guarantee the authenticity of the coin."

So my count right now for auction house terms & conditions on slabbed coins is:

CNG: Unconditional guarantee, but they (mostly) sell unslabbed coins.

Heritage: T&Cs are confusing and self-contradictory. It is safest to assume that they don't guarantee authenticity of slabbed coins without written clarification.

Stacks Bowers: Seems to refer all liability for encapsulated coins to the grading service, and not allow any return for any reason whatsoever by any buyer.

GreatCollections: Only sells encapsulated, guarantees nothing about the coin condition, authenticity, or provenance.

 

Edited April 9 by Bonshaw

[idesofmarch01]

33 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

But they reassure you that the third-party grading services will: "Since the 1980s (and even before), there have been third-party grading companies which will independently assign grades to coins.  As part of their service, they will encapsulate the coin in a tamper-evident holder and also guarantee the authenticity of the coin."

"Guarantee" needs further definition and clarification as used in this paragraph.  What, exactly, is their liability if the coin is later proved a forgery?

We know for a fact that NGC does NOT guarantee refunding the full purchase price (hammer price plus buyer's premium and shipping) in the event that the authenticity of the coin is later proven to be false.  As far as I know, there is no third-party grading company that guarantees to refund the buyer's full costs in the event that the slabbed coin is a forgery.  I believe guarantees such as the one quoted above to be essentially worthless.

[John Conduitt]

30 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

GreatCollections is another auction house that only sells slabbed coins. They mostly do moderns but do have a decent number of ancients. They are absolutely clear:

ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD "AS IS" AND WITH ALL FAULTS. PURCHASER HEREBY ASSUMES ALL RISKS CONCERNING AND RELATED TO THE GRADING, QUALITY, DESCRIPTION, CONDITION, AUTHENTICITY, AND PROVENANCE OF AN ITEM.

But they reassure you that the third-party grading services will: "Since the 1980s (and even before), there have been third-party grading companies which will independently assign grades to coins.  As part of their service, they will encapsulate the coin in a tamper-evident holder and also guarantee the authenticity of the coin."

So my count right now for auction house terms & conditions on slabbed coins is:

CNG: Unconditional guarantee, but they (mostly? only?) sell unslabbed coins.

Heritage: T&Cs are confusing and self-contradictory. It is safest to assume that they don't guarantee authenticity of slabbed coins without written clarification.

Stacks Bowers: Seems to refer all liability for encapsulated coins to the grading service, and not allow any return for any reason whatsoever by any buyer.

GreatCollections: Only sells encapsulated, guarantees nothing about the coin condition, authenticity, or provenance.

 

CNG will sell slabs if the coin is already in a slab. They just do not insist on consigned coins being slabbed, so have very few. Still, their rules for slabbed coins are different to the above as long as the coin is still in the slab:

"Any claim of lack of authenticity must be made in writing by the original purchaser immediately after discovery that an item is not authentic, and upon making such a claim the original purchaser must immediately return the lot to CNG in the same condition as at the time of the auction. Any coin returned as “not authentic” which CNG feels is genuine will be submitted to the International Association of Professional Numismatists Authentication Bureau (IBSCC) for final decision of authenticity. No refund shall be made on such coins until the IBSCC makes their determination. This includes coins that have been submitted to a third-party grading service after the auction. Coins that have been previously encapsulated (“slabbed”) by a grading and/or authentication service may not be returned for any reason, including authenticity, if they have been removed from the encapsulation (“slab”)."

Davissons, who also sell ancients and British coins and also sell slabs if they happen to already be in a slab, have a stronger guarantee of authenticity for coins 'as presented online' (so no weasel words about descriptions):
"Authenticity: This is an auction sale, not an approval sale. All lots are guaranteed to be genuine and as presented online. Any claims, other than claims of authenticity, must be made within three days of receipt of lots."
They also say "Our experience is that the U.S. grading services typically do not understand the grading of coins made with extensive hand work. Authenticity claims must be supported by the judgment of recognized professionals or services such as that provided by the I.A.P.N. (In 2008 we returned an electrotype of a Cromwell crown that was slabbed as “genuine” by NGC)."

[KenDorney]

Well, this thread went a bit sideways, and many of the responses are confusing to say the least.  It is very important to remember that slabbed coins are not guaranteed in any way, shape or form.  If you ask NGC for example, they will waffle around a bit and say that they wont slab a coin unless it is genuine, but they dont guarantee them.  So in the case of the Lydian coin above, there would be a chain of possession to follow.  First the buyer would have to convince Heritage the coin is false.  If they did accept a return, they would have to take it up with their consignor, who would have to take it up with CNG, and finally their consigner as well.  All of these steps are dependent on each person accepting the coin in return.  Any one of them refusing or disagreeing on the authenticity stops the process.  The slab will have no bearing on any of this at all.  It is simple plastic and represents nothing but an opinion in the end.

[John Conduitt]

13 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Well, this thread went a bit sideways, and many of the responses are confusing to say the least.  It is very important to remember that slabbed coins are not guaranteed in any way, shape or form.  If you ask NGC for example, they will waffle around a bit and say that they wont slab a coin unless it is genuine, but they dont guarantee them.  So in the case of the Lydian coin above, there would be a chain of possession to follow.  First the buyer would have to convince Heritage the coin is false.  If they did accept a return, they would have to take it up with their consignor, who would have to take it up with CNG, and finally their consigner as well.  All of these steps are dependent on each person accepting the coin in return.  Any one of them refusing or disagreeing on the authenticity stops the process.  The slab will have no bearing on any of this at all.  It is simple plastic and represents nothing but an opinion in the end.

I think the point of all the sideways, confusing responses (which reflect the auction houses's confusion as much as ours) is that slabbed coins are guaranteed genuine. The exception is if they're ancient. This is where the auction terms for Heritage, Stacks and Great Collections fall down, since they are written as if you have to fall back on the TPG guarantee. But that means that unlike slabbed modern coins or raw ancient coins, slabbed ancients are left with no guarantee at all.