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I don't usually buy Celtic coins...


Parthicus
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...but this one looked cool and the price was right:

image.jpeg.f4352cfe0eb56f24124890fef3c78cb2.jpeg

Carpathian Celts. c.3rd-1st century BC. AR reduced tetradrachm. Imitation of Philip II tetradrachm. Obverse: Stylized head of "Philip" right. Reverse: Stylized horse and rider (rider is reduced to a series of pellets), "Schnabelpferd" (beak-head) type. This coin: eBay, June 2022.

The various Celtic people of Europe issued many coins in the first few centuries BC. Many of the designs were copied from coins received in trade from surrounding peoples, and the tetradrachms of Philip II of Macedon were an important trade coinage and thus extensively copied. Many of the earlier copies were fairly close to the original design, but over time the engravers tended toward more abstract forms only loosely based on the originals. I like the style on this type, especially the obverse portrait. No-one would confuse it for the original macedonian type, but it is still clearly a human face, rendered in an abstract style that I find attractive. I'm not as excited by the horse, which has too small a head, and the hooves have turned into lobster claws, but overall it's still a pleasant coin, and the $27 price was well worth it.   What do you think?  Any other Celtic coins you'd recommend as a sideline collection?

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4 minutes ago, Parthicus said:

What do you think?

That's a great coin. I love the small-headed horse, it's a modern abstract style for over 2000 years old!

Because most Celtic coins are derived from the Philip II tetradrachms, there are a lot of horse-based coins. So if you want a different style of horse, it should be out there. Here are some British designs, but they tend to cost more than the eastern European Celtic coins, especially if the horse has a complete head.

Antedios ‘D-Bar’ Unit, 10-30image.png.9d1340cf7f5d620855137ce26e5c9f44.pngIceni tribe, East Anglia. Silver, 13x14mm, 1.01g. Horse right, corn-ear mane, pellet daisy above, pellet under tail, pellet triad and ANTĐ monogram below. Double moon emblem on vertical wreath (ABC 1645).

 

Vepocunavos ‘Corielatuvian M’ Unit, 15-40image.png.7460e7144d010af5c93a1d8285ba5108.png

Corieltauvi tribe, English Midlands. Silver, 13x14mm, 1.05g. Horse with VEPOC above. Uniface (S 412; ABC 1869; VA 955). Found York.

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3 minutes ago, Ryro said:

IMG_0808.PNG.1d65c791d13ede921601f15291680cca.PNG

Love that coin!

Here's another with a small head...

South Ferriby ‘Stork Head’ Rich Type 28a Unit, 55-45BC

image.png.e9fe3c50a48b382f0d650efc70fe2e71.png

Corieltavi Tribe, English Midlands. Silver, 13-15mm, 1.18g. Horse right, stork head, pellet rosette above, pellet below tail. Plain (ABC 1806; VA 884-1; S−).

Edited by John Conduitt
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1 hour ago, Parthicus said:

...but this one looked cool and the price was right:

image.jpeg.f4352cfe0eb56f24124890fef3c78cb2.jpeg

Carpathian Celts. c.3rd-1st century BC. AR reduced tetradrachm. Imitation of Philip II tetradrachm. Obverse: Stylized head of "Philip" right. Reverse: Stylized horse and rider (rider is reduced to a series of pellets), "Schnabelpferd" (beak-head) type. This coin: eBay, June 2022.

The various Celtic people of Europe issued many coins in the first few centuries BC. Many of the designs were copied from coins received in trade from surrounding peoples, and the tetradrachms of Philip II of Macedon were an important trade coinage and thus extensively copied. Many of the earlier copies were fairly close to the original design, but over time the engravers tended toward more abstract forms only loosely based on the originals. I like the style on this type, especially the obverse portrait. No-one would confuse it for the original macedonian type, but it is still clearly a human face, rendered in an abstract style that I find attractive. I'm not as excited by the horse, which has too small a head, and the hooves have turned into lobster claws, but overall it's still a pleasant coin, and the $27 price was well worth it.   What do you think?  Any other Celtic coins you'd recommend as a sideline collection?

Parthicus, Buying that coin for $25 is akin to felony theft 😮! What is the weight & diameter of the coin 🤔? Actually the stylized head on your coin is Apollo, not Philip 😉. Indeed your coin is highly stylized, but there are other examples with extreme stylization to the point that they are almost unrecognizable, like the British stater in my collection. Nice score BTW 😊!422531972_NGC4166914-004AKCollection.jpg.af699224afb110f5003b7b6867474cb8.jpg

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This is my most abstract British stater based on the Philip II tetradrachm...Apollo and the horse need a lot of explanation...

Cranbourne Chase Stater, 50-10BCimage.png.ce3bac53eff632633330198429c8562c.pngDurotriges tribe, Dorset. Silver, 19mm, 4.78g. Crude head of Apollo with wreath, cloak and crescents. Horse representation left of disjointed pellets, lines and crescents, rectangular head, body of crescents, four vertical legs, three lines for tail; pellet below; twelve pellets above; wheel of biga behind (ABC 2157; VA 1235-1; M 317; S 366). From the Winterborne Stickland (Dorset) Hoard 2013 of 75 staters, Portable Antiquities Scheme: WILT-DF1BB7 (this coin is image 29).

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4 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

the horse need a lot of explanation...

I can see the horse clearly. The head here, the tail there, the back... the mane - it's all there. But maybe it's also because of the two beers at the barbecue tonight. 

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1 hour ago, John Conduitt said:

This is my most abstract British stater based on the Philip II tetradrachm...

Now I read and understand this! This is an British Stater BASED on the Philip II Tetradrachm??? Really? Based

What did the stamp cutter for mushrooms in the Celtic forest drink as tea?
It is possible, of course - that it is in Braille and the dots mean Apollo and Horde.

No offence - but the Brit was a modern antique Picasso. Wikipedia needs to be corrected - the British invented abstract art.

 

But - all joking aside - a really extremely beautiful Stater John! You don't often get to see these great coins in such a condition. Very nice specimen. A successful specimen in the condition and proportions. Congratulations.

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44 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Now I read and understand this! This is an British Stater BASED on the Philip II Tetradrachm??? Really? Based

What did the stamp cutter for mushrooms in the Celtic forest drink as tea?
It is possible, of course - that it is in Braille and the dots mean Apollo and Horde.

No offence - but the Brit was a modern antique Picasso. Wikipedia needs to be corrected - the British invented abstract art.

 

But - all joking aside - a really extremely beautiful Stater John! You don't often get to see these great coins in such a condition. Very nice specimen. A successful specimen in the condition and proportions. Congratulations.

To be fair, to be strictly correct, it's based on a Gallic Celtic copy of a Gallic Celtic copy of a Philip II Tetradrachm. By the time this coin was produced, the original design had been sufficiently abstracted (mostly in gold) it's doubtful they even knew what the original subject was.

Edited by John Conduitt
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12 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Now I read and understand this! This is an British Stater BASED on the Philip II Tetradrachm??? Really? Based

Based on a stater. The eastern Celtic coins were based on the tetradrachms (see here). The stater derivation went something like this (from here)

image.jpeg.de6901f87492e6bf5ca9367a643d4259.jpeg

 

As for the magic mushrooms, that's a distinct possibility. It’s the only way to explain the Yarmouth Stater 😂.

 

 

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4 hours ago, DCCR said:

Based on a stater. The eastern Celtic coins were based on the tetradrachms (see here). The stater derivation went something like this (from here)

image.jpeg.de6901f87492e6bf5ca9367a643d4259.jpeg

 

As for the magic mushrooms, that's a distinct possibility. It’s the only way to explain the Yarmouth Stater 😂.

 

 

Fascinating design evolution on these coins from moderate realism to extreme abstraction 🙂-🙃.

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At the same time Celtic tribes in Britain evolved a coin style of extreme abstraction many of the Celtic tribes in Gaul still followed a style akin to classical Greek art, like the coin pictured below. The portrait on this coin is without question Apollo, but he no longer looks like a god, instead he looks like a common young man without the typical laurel wreath. On the reverse the chariot has disappeared & we see a simple galloping horse without trappings. Above & below the horse we see a pair of lyres confirming the portrait is Apollo.893782100_Nomos22lot9.jpg.5762b0e2acfb75de63a5d78ab1b2ba6b.jpg

Central Gaul, Averni Tribe, 1st Century BC, AV Stater: 7.47 gm, 17 mm, 10 h. "aux deux lyres type". Rare. Photo courtesy of Nomos.

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Awesome graphic, @DCCR!

And a great new coin for an even better price, @Parthicus.  I'd love to get one of those.

Here's a Remi quarter stater c. 2nd to 1st c. BCE with a very clear horse but an extremely stylized head (assuming that's what it's derived from, I'm not certain):

image.jpeg.53059d16734e2dd015509e741fd440a4.jpeg

So the development of obverse and reverse didn't have to happen in parallel.

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Chris Rudd, author of Ancient British Coins (ABC) wrote in the Journal of Ancient Numismatics, Volume 1, "They are cheaper than Greek, rarer than Roman, more bizarre than Byzantine, sexier than Anglo-Saxon, more British than English hammered, and more fun than foreign banknotes. That's the magic of Celtic coins, the first coins made in Britain. If Celtic coins are so unusual and exciting, why don't more collectors collect them ? The answer is that until recently, Celtic coins were hard to find, expensive to buy, and hard to understand. In fact, until 400 years ago, nobody knew of their existence; or if they did, they failed to mention it."

The picture has changed in the last 50 years 😊. Excellent reference books are now available, metal detectorists discovered thousands more Celtic coins, and affordable Celtic coins are now within the reach of most collectors. For anyone who has sparked an interest in Celtic coins I recommend the two books pictured below 🤓. The book by Daphne Nash is a paperback, 153 pages, And provides excellent info on all Celtic coins in general. The Book by Chris Rudd is the "bible" on British Celtic coins. It's a large book of 240 pages and has thousands of coins pictured twice their actual size.

310812659_2books.jpg.09205e96a4b0f417556a4861f5f1bfdf.jpg

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If I can steal @Al Kowsky 's thunder slightly (sorry Al) here's a bigger book list I put together for my Iron Age coins Facebook group

If you just want a book to identify British Celtic Coins, then get “Ancient British Coins”.  If you want to dig deeper into the topic, or like collecting books, then read on. 

Celtic Coins (General)

An Introduction to Celtic Coins” by Derek Allen is a nice lightweight read. “Coinage in the Celtic World” by Daphne Nash covers the same topics, but in much more detail. Neither book is particularly expensive, but you’ll probably get more value from Nash’s book if you can only afford one.

 

British Celts (General)

Ancient British Coins” is a must have for anyone considering collecting coins from this area. It’s now the defacto reference book for British Celtic coins (when you see “ABC” references, this is the book they refer to). 

Celtic Coinage of Britain” by Robert Van Arsdell is still a great book, although his reference system is now superseded, as are some of his conclusions. The “VA” reference numbers you’ll come across refer to this.  It's also available for free online.

"Coins of England and the United Kingdom" by Spinks has a section at the start covering British Celtic coins.  I have a copy, but I wouldn't recommend it just for the Celtic coins.  If you do get it, don't pay any attention to the prices. They have no relationship with reality.  This is the book for the "S " reference numbers. 

"The Coinage of Ancient Britain" by R. P. Mack is well out of date, but I still like it. It comes in various editions.  3rd Edition (1975), 2nd Edition (1964) and the first edition (1953). "Mack" or "M " reference numbers refer to this

"British Iron Age Coins in the British Museum” by Hobbs. It contains photos of every coin in the museum’s collection, and a good deal of background. Perhaps the most useful feature is the index of symbols, which lets you look up a coin by its artwork. If you find coins with “BM” or "BMC" references, this is the book they refer to.

“Celtic Coinage in Britain” by Philip de Jersey, and “The Tribes and Coins of Celtic Britain” by Pudill and Eyre, are both interesting books that won’t break the bank.

"Problems of the Iron Age in Southern Britain" contains a paper (pp. 97-308) by Derek Allen called "The Origins of Coinage in Britain: A Reappraisal".  Better known as "Origins", this is where he organised the Gaulish and British coins into the "Gallo Belgic" and "British" categories (i.e. GB-E and British A). 

 

British Celts (Specific)

Made for Trade: A New View of Icenian Coinage” by John Talbot goes in-depth into the coins of the Iceni tribe. If you collect, or plan to collect, their coins, then this is a must-have book.  If you just want a quick guide to the coins, then "Coins of the Iceni" is a great book.

Divided Kingdoms: The Iron Age Gold Coinage of Southern England” by John Sills takes a very in-depth look at the gold coins from this area. There are two aspects of this book that make it a must-have for the serious collector. Firstly, it fully defines all the coin types. If you are planning to collect an applicable coin set (gold coins from southern England) then this is the book that defines the set. Secondly, Sills has included full catalogues for every applicable coin. Weight, die numbers, CCI or PAS reference where available, or other source information (auction details, eBay details, dealer details, private collection details, etc) where not. Unfortunately it’s not always possible to find the actual coin from these (for example, eBay items are only archived for 90 days so references to them are meaningless now), but it does give you a very accurate rarity figure for a coin, and for individual dies for the coin. If you find coins with “Sills” references, this might be the book they refer to.

John Sills has another book called “Gaulish and Early British Gold Coinage” which, despite its title, covers only three types of coins from Britain (Insular Cf, Insular Xe and Insular Xf). It’s probably not worth the cost just for these, as they are also covered in his Divided Kingdoms book. However, if you want to know about the evolution of gold coinage in Gaul, and therefore Britain, then it's a great book.

If you are interested in identifying Corieltavi silver coins, the "Boar Horse: Uninscribed Silver Coins of the Corieltavi" is the book for you.  For a slightly more specialised look at the Corieltavi coins, then "The Coins of the Coritani" by Derek Allen might be worth tracking down.  It's 40 pages long (excluding plates) and out of date (it was published in 1963 and even the tribe's name has changed) so probably only worth it if you are really into these coins.

"The Coinage of the Atrebates and Regni" by Bean is his PhD thesis on the topic. It's almost certainly superseded by “Divided Kingdoms” so probably only worth getting if you specialise in the coins from this area.

"The Coinage of the Dobunni: Money Supply and Coin Circulation in Dobunnic Territory" is about the only book that exists that focuses solely on the Dobunni.  Again, only worth getting if you are really into these coins. I found "Bagendon, a Belgic oppidum: A record of the excavations of 1954-56" to be a much more useful book on the topic (pp. 75-149 "A Study of the Dobunnic Coinage" by Derek Allen)

Finally, “Coin Hoards in Iron Age Britain” by Philip de Jersey gives details of every Celtic coin hoard ever found in Britain. The casual collector probably won’t get much out of this book, but if you start to seriously collect British Celtic coins, then this will help you with your detective work.

 

Art on Celtic Coins

Ancient Celtic Coin Art” by Simon Lilly costs almost nothing and is dedicated to the subject, although don’t expect any scientific analysis. Instead, think “new age”. “Celtic Improvisations: An Art Historical Analysis of Coriosolite Coins” by John Hooker contains quite a good discussion about the art on Celtic coins, and it’s remarkably general considering the book is entirely focused on the coins from one tribe.

Coins and Power in Late Iron Age Britain” by John Creighton also covers the topic nicely, with his discussion of serial imagery and the ritualistic reasons behind the art.  The book is mainly about other things, but I never read beyond the section on serial imagery.  If you like inscribed coins and the tribal dynasties, then you might enjoy the rest of it.

Edited by DCCR
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28 minutes ago, DCCR said:

If I can steal @Al Kowsky 's thunder slightly (sorry Al) here's a bigger book list I put together for my Iron Age coins Facebook group

If you just want a book to identify British Celtic Coins, then get “Ancient British Coins”.  If you want to dig deeper into the topic, or like collecting books, then read on. 

Celtic Coins (General)

An Introduction to Celtic Coins” by Derek Allen is a nice lightweight read. “Coinage in the Celtic World” by Daphne Nash covers the same topics, but in much more detail. Neither book is particularly expensive, but you’ll probably get more value from Nash’s book if you can only afford one.

 

British Celts (General)

Ancient British Coins” is a must have for anyone considering collecting coins from this area. It’s now the defacto reference book for British Celtic coins (when you see “ABC” references, this is the book they refer to). 

Celtic Coinage of Britain” by Robert Van Arsdell is still a great book, although his reference system is now superseded, as are some of his conclusions. The “VA” reference numbers you’ll come across refer to this.  It's also available for free online.

"Coins of England and the United Kingdom" by Spinks has a section at the start covering British Celtic coins.  I have a copy, but I wouldn't recommend it just for the Celtic coins.  If you do get it, don't pay any attention to the prices. They have no relationship with reality.  This is the book for the "S " reference numbers. 

"The Coinage of Ancient Britain" by R. P. Mack is well out of date, but I still like it. It comes in various editions.  3rd Edition (1975), 2nd Edition (1964) and the first edition (1953). "Mack" or "M " reference numbers refer to this

"British Iron Age Coins in the British Museum” by Hobbs. It contains photos of every coin in the museum’s collection, and a good deal of background. Perhaps the most useful feature is the index of symbols, which lets you look up a coin by its artwork. If you find coins with “BM” or "BMC" references, this is the book they refer to.

“Celtic Coinage in Britain” by Philip de Jersey, and “The Tribes and Coins of Celtic Britain” by Pudill and Eyre, are both interesting books that won’t break the bank.

"Problems of the Iron Age in Southern Britain" contains a paper (pp. 97-308) by Derek Allen called "The Origins of Coinage in Britain: A Reappraisal".  Better known as "Origins", this is where he organised the Gaulish and British coins into the "Gallo Belgic" and "British" categories (i.e. GB-E and British A). 

 

British Celts (Specific)

Made for Trade: A New View of Icenian Coinage” by John Talbot goes in-depth into the coins of the Iceni tribe. If you collect, or plan to collect, their coins, then this is a must-have book.  If you just want a quick guide to the coins, then "Coins of the Iceni" is a great book.

Divided Kingdoms: The Iron Age Gold Coinage of Southern England” by John Sills takes a very in-depth look at the gold coins from this area. There are two aspects of this book that make it a must-have for the serious collector. Firstly, it fully defines all the coin types. If you are planning to collect an applicable coin set (gold coins from southern England) then this is the book that defines the set. Secondly, Sills has included full catalogues for every applicable coin. Weight, die numbers, CCI or PAS reference where available, or other source information (auction details, eBay details, dealer details, private collection details, etc) where not. Unfortunately it’s not always possible to find the actual coin from these (for example, eBay items are only archived for 90 days so references to them are meaningless now), but it does give you a very accurate rarity figure for a coin, and for individual dies for the coin. If you find coins with “Sills” references, this might be the book they refer to.

John Sills has another book called “Gaulish and Early British Gold Coinage” which, despite its title, covers only three types of coins from Britain (Insular Cf, Insular Xe and Insular Xf). It’s probably not worth the cost just for these, as they are also covered in his Divided Kingdoms book. However, if you want to know about the evolution of gold coinage in Gaul, and therefore Britain, then it's a great book.

If you are interested in identifying Corieltavi silver coins, the "Boar Horse: Uninscribed Silver Coins of the Corieltavi" is the book for you.  For a slightly more specialised look at the Corieltavi coins, then "The Coins of the Coritani" by Derek Allen might be worth tracking down.  It's 40 pages long (excluding plates) and out of date (it was published in 1963 and even the tribe's name has changed) so probably only worth it if you are really into these coins.

"The Coinage of the Atrebates and Regni" by Bean is his PhD thesis on the topic. It's almost certainly superseded by “Divided Kingdoms” so probably only worth getting if you specialise in the coins from this area.

"The Coinage of the Dobunni: Money Supply and Coin Circulation in Dobunnic Territory" is about the only book that exists that focuses solely on the Dobunni.  Again, only worth getting if you are really into these coins. I found "Bagendon, a Belgic oppidum: A record of the excavations of 1954-56" to be a much more useful book on the topic (pp. 75-149 "A Study of the Dobunnic Coinage" by Derek Allen)

Finally, “Coin Hoards in Iron Age Britain” by Philip de Jersey gives details of every Celtic coin hoard ever found in Britain. The casual collector probably won’t get much out of this book, but if you start to seriously collect British Celtic coins, then this will help you with your detective work.

 

Art on Celtic Coins

Ancient Celtic Coin Art” by Simon Lilly costs almost nothing and is dedicated to the subject, although don’t expect any scientific analysis. Instead, think “new age”. “Celtic Improvisations: An Art Historical Analysis of Coriosolite Coins” by John Hooker contains quite a good discussion about the art on Celtic coins, and it’s remarkably general considering the book is entirely focused on the coins from one tribe.

Coins and Power in Late Iron Age Britain” by John Creighton also covers the topic nicely, with his discussion of serial imagery and the ritualistic reasons behind the art.  The book is mainly about other things, but I never read beyond the section on serial imagery.  If you like inscribed coins and the tribal dynasties, then you might enjoy the rest of it.

DCCR, There's no need to apologize for expanding the info pool ☺️. Your in-depth list is outstanding & covers just about everything useful on the subject. I recently bought the latest edition of Coins of England and the United Kingdom by Spink & was very disappointed with it ☹️; for the cost I felt like I was ripped-off. Many of the photos were so dark you couldn't recognize the coins. Some of the books in your list are hard to find & expensive, especially if they are out of print 😉.

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Great book lists and really useful.

1 hour ago, DCCR said:

although his reference system is now superseded

This is true, but Van Arsdell's system certainly persists in many places - probably because you can get it for free on the website.

Edited by John Conduitt
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1 hour ago, Al Kowsky said:

Some of the books in your list are hard to find & expensive, especially if they are out of print 😉.

Tell me about it!  I may have to choose between collecting coins and collecting books about coins😂.  Stukeley's "Twenty-three plates of the coins of the ancient British kings" is probably my most expensive so far.  I own most of these (all but Van Arsdel) so if you want to get more info before buying any of them, feel free to get in touch.

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56 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Great book lists and really useful.

This is true, but Van Arsdell's system certainly persists in many places - probably because you can get it for free on the website.

I don't see it getting used much as a primary reference these days. It's normally ABC or Spinks that get used, with VA maybe being added as a secondary reference.  I'm surprised Spinks gets used more then VA though. I know many collectors and metal detectorists in the UK will have a copy of Spinks, but VA is free online like you say and should probably get more attention than it does. 

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1 hour ago, John Conduitt said:

And somehow I missed the photo of your collection on the other post. That is incredible. A lot of Durotriges in there? You can't be far off the leading expert in those...

Thanks :-).  The more I study them, the less I know.  I'm doing a die study of the quarter staters and John Talbot is doing the staters. 

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On 7/10/2022 at 5:49 PM, John Conduitt said:

This is my most abstract British stater based on the Philip II tetradrachm...Apollo and the horse need a lot of explanation...

Cranbourne Chase Stater, 50-10BCimage.png.ce3bac53eff632633330198429c8562c.pngDurotriges tribe, Dorset. Silver, 19mm, 4.78g. Crude head of Apollo with wreath, cloak and crescents. Horse representation left of disjointed pellets, lines and crescents, rectangular head, body of crescents, four vertical legs, three lines for tail; pellet below; twelve pellets above; wheel of biga behind (ABC 2157; VA 1235-1; M 317; S 366). From the Winterborne Stickland (Dorset) Hoard 2013 of 75 staters, Portable Antiquities Scheme: WILT-DF1BB7 (this coin is image 29).

really lovely example! that horse is evidence of why we should only allow supervised grazing, keep the horses off the mushrooms

 

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