mystery coin?????

[panzerman]

I just won this AV Obol 0.97g. Tauler & Fau auction. Seems it not published anywhere.

Obverse: Sea Shell

Reverse: Cart Wheel

Prev. Auction Cayon 31.3.2014

Can anyone help with more info.

John

[Kamnaskires]

Interesting. You are probably aware of this, but seems to be most closely related - from an iconography standpoint - to a variety of AR fraction from Taras/Tarentum.

https://www.ma-shops.com/henzen/item.php?id=72568

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3707&lot=4

 

[shanxi]

On this page your coin is discussed as a fake (see Case 3). Of course, the authors could be wrong.  You certainly have to examine the arguments in detail.

https://numismaticfakes.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/taras-unique-and-unpublished-gold-coins-no-fakes-previously-on/

https://www.lamoneta.it/topic/121053-frazionale-aureo-inedito-taras/

Edited December 18, 2023 by shanxi

[panzerman]

Those are fantastic sites/ sure opens up possibilities that coin is suspect. However both Cayon and Tauler & Fau are famous and highly respectable auction houses. Maybe I will write Tauler & Fau get some info on coins history. Both many thanks for your help.

John

[kirispupis]

I find it interesting that the site's primary evidence for marking this coin as a fake is 

The problem is that Taras has not issued gold coinage before the fourth century, so this fractional on auction, from a historical point of view, it very unconvincing.

Do we absolutely know that Taras didn't issue gold coinage at this time? That seems unlikely to be verifiable. I could certainly understand if there exists a silver issue that proves this coin is a cast of it, but I find it difficult to accept a coin is 100% a fake based on a statement we're not sure is true.

[panzerman]

2 hours ago, kirispupis said:

I find it interesting that the site's primary evidence for marking this coin as a fake is 

The problem is that Taras has not issued gold coinage before the fourth century, so this fractional on auction, from a historical point of view, it very unconvincing.

Do we absolutely know that Taras didn't issue gold coinage at this time? That seems unlikely to be verifiable. I could certainly understand if there exists a silver issue that proves this coin is a cast of it, but I find it difficult to accept a coin is 100% a fake based on a statement we're not sure is true.

You have made a great point! None of us were around in Taras at that time/ so that analysis seems on shaky ground. The AR coins have the sea scallop and a wheel reverse/ however the AV Obol's reverse wheel is completely different. Look at those AV 10 Asses/ AV As from Populonia/ also unpublished/ even though some exs were found in 1700s. The AV Solidi from Theodosius III / Maurice Tiberius son also recent discovery. In India a lot of newly unearthed gold have come to light in past decades. With advent of LIDAR/ metal detecting tech/ much more stuff  will be found. Thats a good thing.

John

[Deinomenid]

I’m afraid I would bet a large sum that this is fake even before addressing Kirispupis’ point. A few experts I have spoken with are sure, it was also flagged as highly likely fake by the German “specialists” over on their fake warning site. (Though there is some overlap with the Italians so there is a risk of echo chamber.)

There is a very similar presumed fake on forumancient. In the massive exhaustive corpus that’s been recently published and discussed here in the Greek forum it is not included (nor is the similar coin that’s been knocking around so it’s not an oversight by the authors.)

Also look at the edges. That’s very unusual for gold. Also look at the central hub design. Highly unusual.

And this is even before discussing the role of gold in the area then. One way of looking at it is to ask why gold would be struck then? It’s highly highly unusual outside so great an emergency as an existential crisis.  
 

Gaming it, I’d say there’s a fractional (ha!) chance this is real. And more cynically if it were real it would be extremely valuable and possibly sold through a more substantial house. As this coin has been widely discussed recently there have been many chances for people  to realize its claimed genuineness and -while it would not be widely proclaimed before the sale - for that to be reflected in a bidding war for what would then be as vanishingly rare piece.

 

[Deinomenid]

43 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Do we absolutely know

No, but that can’t be the basis for the “verdict”. All we can do is weigh the balance of probabilities. The design is off, the manufacture is off, the supposed dating matches nothing I’m aware of in the area that would make its production plausible though the problem here is the auction house makes it very difficult to be sure of an “event” as their dating is so flipping vague. The only event of roughly that period  that could match was the huge defeat at the hands of the Iapygians. 
 

Also don’t forget the coinage of the whole system there ( broadly Greek Italy) in this vague pre500 BC period was incuse style. Which this is not of course.

Lastly -and to me almost overwhelmingly- is the VAST 1911 Taranto hoard that dates from the late 6th century and contains NO Taras coins at all. Of course that could mean somehow this coin was say 510-500 but once one has listed all the evidence and there’s really little left it’s definitely highly likely fake. Sorry.

I suppose there’s a price at which the coin has some small option value for the low chance of it being genuine, but that’s (to me) a smallish premium to metal value. I don’t know what it went for. Didn’t look.

[I_v_a_n]

Here is a link for discussion of this piece:

https://www.lamoneta.it/topic/219281-taras/

 

My own rule borned from very bad experience with "unique, unpublished and etc. highly important variant" of gold coins is totally to avoid any "unique, unpublished and etc.". This is a case with left-hand orientated Herakles at Tarentum stater which was sold at last Rauch, I'll open a separate thread for it.

[panzerman]

The coin had a top bid of 1100 euros/ when it came up it was quickly bid up to 3200 (me) So I definately do not want to pay 3200+ fees for a coin that is dubious. Teutonburger had a VZ-ST AV Aureus Gallienus (joint reign) Calico Plate coin/ unique go unsold at 7200. Last sold Ars Classica in 2004. That coin is 100 percent geniune + its unique+ better quality.

I will try to get Tauler & Fau to give me provenance of their coin.....which they did. They wanted me to send link to site. They stated the provenance was that it belonged to a long time collector of ancient coinage. However they are looking into it now. Till I have 100 percent proof its REAL/ I wil not send any $$$!

[panzerman]

Jacobo Tauler informed me that they would be sending coin back to consignee and all thus ends well.

John

[DonnaML]

37 minutes ago, panzerman said:

Jacobo Tauler informed me that they would be sending coin back to consignee and all thus ends well.

John

I'm glad they agreed not to make an issue over this. A sign that a dealer is truly reputable is a willingness to cancel a transaction when there's any doubt as to authenticity. Still, it's a good thing for you that you hadn't paid yet -- it's always a little more difficult to get an actual refund than to have a transaction canceled before you pay!

[Sulla80]

3 hours ago, panzerman said:

Jacobo Tauler informed me that they would be sending coin back to consignee and all thus ends well.

John

Glad this had an acceptable outcome - and it generated some interesting reading for the rest of us from this thread! Thanks, John, @Kamnaskires, @shanxi @Deinomenid & @kirispupis!

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sulla80
added a couple of key contributors

[panzerman]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I'm glad they agreed not to make an issue over this. A sign that a dealer is truly reputable is a willingness to cancel a transaction when there's any doubt as to authenticity. Still, it's a good thing for you that you hadn't paid yet -- it's always a little more difficult to get an actual refund than to have a transaction canceled before you pay!

Thanks/ they had not even sent out invoices yet. However/ its nice to have helpfull people on this forum that responded and made it a positive outcome. The Auction house was glad that I pointed it out to them. Thankfully there are collectors and other experts that bring these things to light.

John

[panzerman]

4 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

Glad this had an acceptable outcome - and it generated some interesting reading for the rest of us from this thread! Thanks, John, @Deinomenid & @kirispupis!

Absolutely correct/ I learnt a lot too! Many collectors get taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous sellers (esp. e-bay) but also auction houses fall victim too. Thus, anyone not sure should ask questions/ get advice. Coin forums can offer a treasure trove of reliable information.

John