Salomons Cat Posted October 26, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 26, 2023 I have absolutely no clue about sestertii. I collect only silver coins and I own almost only silver coins. Usually, I barely notice the brass or copper coins that appear in auctions. But this one left me perplexed: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/monnaiesdantan/browse?a=3957&l=4657840 I have no clue how to spot if a sestertius is fake or not. Is this one of the greatest Caligula sestertii, ever? Even better than most of the paduans? Apart maybe from the fact that it looks very “soft”? Or is it fake? My French is very rusty, but I have the impression that according to the description and considering the price it should be genuine 🤔 Quote Caligula - Sesterce (37-38, Rome) A/ C CAESAR AVG GERMANICVS PON M TR POT. Tête laurée de l'empereur à gauche. R/ AGRIPPINA DRVSILLA IVLIA. Les trois soeurs de Caligula, représentées comme Securitas, Concordia et Fortuna, tenant chacune une corne d'abondance. À l'exergue, S.C. TTB RSC.4 (251f)-RCV.1800 ($12800)-RIC.33 Ae ; 24.10 gr ; 33 mm Monnaie très rare dans cet qualité. I’m just not sure… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idesofmarch01 Posted October 26, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 26, 2023 I think that this coin is possibly a cleaned-up version of the Paduan copy sold by CNG in Electronic Auction 489, lot 797: If it's not this same coin, it is remarkably similarly in most respects. E.g., the surrounding dots on the reverse appear and disappear on almost exactly the same location in both coins, as well as being almost the exact same distance from the edge of the coin, which I think would be highly unlikely on a genuine coin vs. a Paduan copy. Note that CNG's description also states "Brown patina with green deposits" so the CNG picture doesn't accurately represent the color. Also note that the CNG coin appears very slightly elongated along the horizontal axis which could be an artifact of the photo processing. It's possible that Monnais D'Anton is unaware that this might be a Paduan copy and is pricing it as if it's genuine. I surely would not bid on this coin unless I had an independent expert examine and verify it in person, and you might consider notifying the auction house of this similar sale by CNG. 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted October 26, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 26, 2023 19 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said: I think that this coin is possibly a cleaned-up version of the Paduan copy sold by CNG in Electronic Auction 489, lot 797: If it's not this same coin, it is remarkably similarly in most respects. E.g., the surrounding dots on the reverse appear and disappear on almost exactly the same location in both coins, as well as being almost the exact same distance from the edge of the coin, which I think would be highly unlikely on a genuine coin vs. a Paduan copy. Note that CNG's description also states "Brown patina with green deposits" so the CNG picture doesn't accurately represent the color. Also note that the CNG coin appears very slightly elongated along the horizontal axis which could be an artifact of the photo processing. It's possible that Monnais D'Anton is unaware that this might be a Paduan copy and is pricing it as if it's genuine. I surely would not bid on this coin unless I had an independent expert examine and verify it in person, and you might consider notifying the auction house of this similar sale by CNG. Absolutely! Thank you! That’s the same, I think that there is no doubt now… I will send an email to the seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted October 26, 2023 · Patron Share Posted October 26, 2023 I was just coming here to warn you that that is one of the most copied sestertii in Roman numismatics and Cavino the Paduan made a version of it. There are numerous aftercasts of Cavino's work -- as well as other forgeries out there. This one is a so-called "Paduan." Note that it looks copper-colored, not the brassy orichalcum one would expect from the real deal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted October 26, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 26, 2023 11 minutes ago, Roman Collector said: I was just coming here to warn you that that is one of the most copied sestertii in Roman numismatics and Cavino the Paduan made a version of it. There are numerous aftercasts of Cavino's work -- as well as other forgeries out there. This one is a so-called "Paduan." Note that it looks copper-colored, not the brassy orichalcum one would expect from the real deal. Thank you! I was also wondering about the color. The CNG coin reveals some orichalcum - so I would assume that it’s the better “later cast after Giovanni da Cavino” than the one that I posted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted October 26, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Salomons Cat said: I have absolutely no clue about sestertii. I collect only silver coins and I own almost only silver coins. Usually, I barely notice the brass or copper coins that appear in auctions. But this one left me perplexed: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/monnaiesdantan/browse?a=3957&l=4657840 I have no clue how to spot if a sestertius is fake or not. Is this one of the greatest Caligula sestertii, ever? Even better than most of the paduans? Apart maybe from the fact that it looks very “soft”? Or is it fake? My French is very rusty, but I have the impression that according to the description and considering the price it should be genuine 🤔 I’m just not sure… As I say in our PN Conversation - I am not 100% sure it was a modern (!) Paduan - but I have a bad feeling with this Caligula. And there are many indicators, it was a modern Paduan. The 33mm diameter, the typical style of modern Paduan issues. This was also a Paduan: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=7286&lot=3880 And it was very similar like „your“ linked „Caligula“. Think was the same / similar stamp group. Modern Paduan because, take a look to my sold original Paduan from 16th century at my store. This was a original Paduan. Take a look to the here before linked Paduan - and look at this original Cavino Paduan. You see the different quality of the Caligula portrait? You see the different at the reverse presentation, the quality of details and style? Cavino was a master. https://www.ma-shops.de/weiss/item.php?id=601 Edited October 26, 2023 by Prieure de Sion 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted October 27, 2023 · Patron Share Posted October 27, 2023 Paduans can be fun, and they are a legitimate area to collect if you know what you're doing. I like the ones that have fantasy designs, that way you won't be fooled. I have only one in my collection. It's obviously a fantasy, for it combines a lifetime obverse of Faustina II with a posthumous reverse type used by Julio-Claudian emperors before the Antonine period. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted October 27, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 27, 2023 Can someone please post a genuine ancient example of the type for comparison purposes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idesofmarch01 Posted October 27, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 27, 2023 6 1 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted October 27, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 27, 2023 Got this years ago from a Triton auction. Saw the sestertius in question listed but felt it just didn't look right. 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted October 27, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 27, 2023 My opinion... 😉 see and compare the (quality & style) different. 1. Original Caligula 2. Original Cavino 3. ??? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted October 27, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 27, 2023 Here in another fake to enter into the mix just for more stylistic comparison to know fakes:- Described as "Paduan medal after Giovanni Cavino, imitating Caligula sestertius". I have seen many aftercasts of these dies. I also found these in the Forvm Fake reports, which is a cast, from what appears to be the same dies as #3 above 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted October 29, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 29, 2023 The coin has been withdrawn from auction 😊 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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