arcadivs Posted August 30, 2023 · Member Share Posted August 30, 2023 Hello, this is my first post here. I recently got this VERY crude imitation of a type A anonymous follis. I've posted this elsewhere and some have suggested it may be an Islamic imitation (mainly due to the scripts in the right field of the obverse). The reverse appears to be similar in content to official coins - albeit far far cruder. I've been searching for a while and can't seem to find any matches to any Islamic or Armenian imitations and so was wondering if you fine folk have seen anything like this before? Any help to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated 🙂 If not, enjoy this very dumbstruck-looking Christ! 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Julius Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) I don’t have much background in these coins so can’t help much with the coin but I like it! There many here that collect these so I’m sure someone who can help will be along shortly. Otherwise, WELCOME! This is the best place on the internet to talk about ancient coins. In honor of your screen-name, here’s an Arcadius! Not my best but there are some Christian themes here that somewhat align with your coin. Edited August 31, 2023 by Orange Julius 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) Hello @arcadivs. Welcome to Nvmis Forvms. Your coin is interesting. I collect Byzantine coins, and I have an A2 and an A3. I've never seen anything quite like your coin. As you said, perhaps it's an Islamic imitation or Armenian imitation. Or maybe it's a Crusader imitation of a Byzantine coin, or an official Crusader coin. I don't know. However, there are other Byzantine collectors, who have a lot of Byzantine knowledge : @voulgaroktonou, @Valentinian, @Simon, and @Severus Alexander. Maybe 1 of them knows something about it. Or, maybe 1 of the other Byzantine collectors knows something about it. Edited August 31, 2023 by sand 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted August 31, 2023 arcadivs, Welcome to the NVMIS FORVMS website ☺️. The photos you posted are interesting. Anonymous folles are so plentiful it's hard to imagine contemporary imitations of them were made, especially by Islamic sources. I've never seen Islamic imitations made after the 7th century of this coin type. Have you entertained the idea it might be a modern imitation 🤔? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadivs Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 9 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said: arcadivs, Welcome to the NVMIS FORVMS website ☺️. The photos you posted are interesting. Anonymous folles are so plentiful it's hard to imagine contemporary imitations of them were made, especially by Islamic sources. I've never seen Islamic imitations made after the 7th century of this coin type. Have you entertained the idea it might be a modern imitation 🤔? Thank you! Yes, I have wondered that myself although as you say, anonymous folles are plentiful I can't imagine anyone wanting to make a modern imitation. If they did, I wonder why they wouldn't just cast a nicer example, it seems to have been quite a bit of effort for a very poor result. I'm assuming the coin isn't a cast as it doesn't really have any signs of being so, although the poor condition of the coin could be concealing them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadivs Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 9 hours ago, Orange Julius said: I don’t have much background in these coins so can’t help much with the coin but I like it! There many here that collect these so I’m sure someone who can help will be along shortly. Otherwise, WELCOME! This is the best place on the internet to talk about ancient coins. In honor of your screen-name, here’s an Arcadius! Not my best but there are some Christian themes here that somewhat align with your coin. Thank you very much! Despite my namesake, I'm yet to own any coins of Arcadius (I have to admit that I've used it in lots of places just because I think it's a cool name 😁). That example is in lovely condition compared to many of the bronze pieces from his reign - the hand crowning an already diademed Arcadius has to be my favourite part of it! Coins with captives are always fun, I'll have to keep an eye for one so I can live up to the name 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted August 31, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 31, 2023 Here are my two examples of Islamic Anonymous follis, I would cross Islamic off the list for your coin. Your reverse seems to be Greek ( Upside-down?) 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadivs Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Simon said: Here are my two examples of Islamic Anonymous follis, I would cross Islamic off the list for your coin. Your reverse seems to be Greek ( Upside-down?) Yes, the reverse is definitely in Greek so not much like yours, I'll turn my search away from Islamic imitations. I think the reverse is the correction orientation, just below the large flan I can make out +IhSUS (although the S and U are so poor they look more like I and a backwards r!). I'm starting to consider that it might be a crafty byzantine trying to stamp his own coins as even imitations seem to be more sophisticated than this example. That or as @Al Kowsky suggests, it is a more modern creation. Edited August 31, 2023 by arcadivs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted August 31, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted August 31, 2023 I see +IhSU_ on the reverse as well. I am not an expert on bronzes, but the surface on the coin looks like malachite. I do not think that is a typical patina for a fake. But I am not this guy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted August 31, 2023 Apparently there were contemporary Bulgarian imitations of anonymous follises as well, e.g.: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3666301 Here are some other very crude contemporary imitations that were listed as being from uncertain mints: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8103846 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5721579 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9336134 None of these really look like yours though… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadivs Posted August 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 10 minutes ago, Sol_Invictus said: Apparently there were contemporary Bulgarian imitations of anonymous follises as well, e.g.: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3666301 Here are some other very crude contemporary imitations that were listed as being from uncertain mints: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8103846 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5721579 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9336134 None of these really look like yours though… Yes, I've had a look at some of those. As you say though, they don't really look too similar. There are some Armenian imitations as well, which are cruder although they have Armenian on the reverse (I'll link below), unlike mine which is in Greek! It's an odd coin - if only it came with some provenance I might be able to narrow it down but it came in a group lot from one of the budget auction houses https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=armenian+follis+christ&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1¤cy=usd&order=1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted September 7, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) Interesting coins! I have zero knowledge when it comes to these imitations. I did pick up one several years ago from Stephen Huston of San Francisco, in November 1992. Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire A contemporary imitation of a Basil II and Constantine VIII, follis, 11th century. 8.86 grams As can be seen, this is a very crude coin with a blundered legend, with some retrograde letters, on the reverse. The OP coin is quite different compared to this example, but I think that it is generally from this period (11th century). For comparison, there's a follis of Basill II and Constantine VIII, from a group lot. Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire Basil II and Constantine VIII anonymous follis, Class A3. Edited September 7, 2023 by robinjojo 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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