Feedback requested for Byzantine portrait thread

[Severus Alexander]

Good news! We’ll be continuing @CPK’s magnificent portrait thread here in the Byzantine subforum, with yours truly taking over as thread Caesar. I hope all you Byzantine fans will join in! To encourage participation I’ll be offering a prize or prizes of some sort, tba, available only to regular contributors.

A posting schedule consisting of 2-day slots devoted to each set of portraits worked very well, as did the switch time of 3pm Eastern, so we’ll continue with those traditions here unless there’s a chorus of objections. The purpose of the current post is to solicit feedback on my proposed schedule, but first let me give you a feel for how the thread will work.

The focus in the Roman subforum was on your favourite portrait of each personality in your collection. Typically this was your highest grade, most artistic portrait in your opinion. Given the nature of Byzantine portraiture I’m going to expand that a bit. Besides your “best” portrait in that sense, I’ll ask people to include portraits that are intriguing for other reasons, e.g. amusing portraits (really bad ones, silly overstrikes etc.), or having special features (unusual crowns, scowls, or whatever).

Some personalities are very difficult to obtain portraits of, e.g. Artavasdus. In these cases you’ll be invited to post a coin of theirs even if they’re not portrayed on it. Similarly for obscure members of the emperor’s family, as listed in the schedule. Even if a portrait is readily available, you might consider that personality to be “checked off” your list if you have a coin with their name on it. By all means, post that coin-o, but the thread emphasis will be portraiture.

I’m going to create the new thread this Thursday. This isn’t it! As I said, the purpose of this thread is to seek your feedback on the proposed schedule. Speak now or forever hold your peace!

(That said, feel free to give us a juicy sneak peek at one of your favourite Byzantine portraits here.)

Re: the schedule, here are couple of areas I’d particularly like feedback on:

One complication arises with co-emperors. When we get to Basil II, for example, do we start posting him with Nic II Phocas, with whom he was co-(but junior)-emperor? Or do we wait until he’s senior emperor? In the schedule below I’ve gone with the following approach: on coins issued under Nic II it’s OK to post Basil II coins with him as junior emperor, but not Basil II coins from his reign as senior emperor. This makes the most practical sense, it seems to me, as the junior Basil II coins will always feature a portrait of Nic II too (off the top of my head). More generally, it’s usually a two birds with one stone kinda situation. Right? Mistakes will inevitably happen, of course, with some coins being posted too early or too late. Think of these occasions as teaching/learning opportunities! We can all get a better understanding of the chronology of our collections.

There’s also the question of how to handle the period of the anonymous folles in the 11th century, where several portraits are only available in gold, and so outside the scope of many collections. My solution here is to glom them together into two large groups first, excluding the anonymous folles, and then to have a slot devoted entirely to the anonymous folles. Let me know what you think of that strategy. (If you’re unclear on what I mean just look at the schedule below and you’ll see what I’m talking about).

I didn’t do much of a proofread, so please point out typos and other clerical errors, as well as any missing personalities you notice. I followed Sear’s Byzantine Coins and their Values to compile the list.

[CPK]

Unfortunately, as I have only one Byzantine coin, I'll be mainly a spectator here. But I will for sure be looking forward to seeing everyone else's coins! 👍

[Severus Alexander]

Oh, one other thing... I've gone with the Latin spelling in Sear (e.g. Ducas), but would be more than happy to switch it to Greek (e.g. Doukas).

John III Doukas Vatatzes of Nicaea (1222-1254):

[Alexios]

Byzantine coins are my favorite

 

[sand]

@Severus Alexander It looks like fun. If I understand your chart correctly, the anonymous folles will be posted from August 8, 2023 at 3 pm Eastern Daylight Time through August 10, 2023 at 2:59 pm Eastern Daylight Time. Is that correct?

[Hrefn]

I have a couple of these emperors.  Kudos to @Severus Alexanderfor organizing this.  Can we post more than one portrait per emperor?  Is wretched excess allowed?  Let the games begin!

[ewomack]

I have about a dozen Byzantine coins from maybe 9 emperors.

Was this something that was running previously? I guess I completely missed it until now.

I think Byzantines are my new favorite as well. Since we're talking about them, I'll post a few.

Leo V AD 813-820, Æ Follis (23mm, 4.43 grams) Constantinopolis; LEON S CONST; facing busts of Leo (l.) and Constantine (r.);
Large M between XXX and NNN; cross above and A below; Sear 1630

Leo VI (AD 886-912); Constantinople; Æ Follis; Obv: +LEOn bAS - ILEVS ROM' Bust facing wearing crown and chlamys, holding akakia in l. hand; Rev: Inscription in four lines: +LEOn / Eh ΘEO bA / SILEVS R / OmEOh; 7.67g.;  Berk 918, Sear 1729

Edited May 30, 2023 by ewomack

[Severus Alexander]

2 hours ago, sand said:

It looks like fun. If I understand your chart correctly, the anonymous folles will be posted from August 8, 2023 at 3 pm Eastern Daylight Time through August 10, 2023 at 2:59 pm Eastern Daylight Time. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct, @sand. I look forward to seeing yours. 🙂 

Speaking of anonymous folles, that's a beautiful Class B, @Alexios!

1 hour ago, Hrefn said:

Can we post more than one portrait per emperor?  Is wretched excess allowed?  Let the games begin!

With your excellent collection, @Hrefn, I would certainly expect to see you often post more than one portrait per emperor.  Especially with my broadening of scope vis-a-vis the Roman thread – to include "interesting" portraits for various reasons – there's plenty of opportunity for multiples.  That said, I will likely continue my bad cop role in discouraging what you delightfully call "wretched excess." 👮‍♂️😉

1 hour ago, ewomack said:

Was this something that was running previously?

In the Roman subforum, yes - nearly 1700 replies at this point!  It's not too late to post some of your favourites as a sort of catch-up. (BTW, I love that Leo V portrait!)

 

[Severus Alexander]

Here's a very sad looking portrait of Maurice:

I'm especially fond of Cyzicus and Nikomedia portraits from the Maurice to Heraclius period... lots of amusing ones!

[Broucheion]

Never mind. My error.

- Broucheion 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Broucheion

[Simon]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:43 PM, Severus Alexander said:

A posting schedule consisting of 2-day slots devoted to each set of portraits worked very well, as did the switch time of 3pm Eastern, so we’ll continue with those traditions here unless there’s a chorus of objections. The purpose of the current post is to solicit feedback on my proposed schedule, but first let me give you a feel for how the thread will work.

So it starts tomorrow at 3pm?

[Severus Alexander]

55 minutes ago, Simon said:

So it starts tomorrow at 3pm?

You bet! I’ll be sure to get the thread-starting post up before then. Everyone seems satisfied with the draft schedule as is (yay!), I’ll give it a proofread and then we’re good to go.

Start your Byzantine engines! (Much better than steampunk!)

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I'm looking forward to it.

[Valentinian]

If this is the thread itself, good. However, if you are intending to start a new thread for the images, please include a copy of the timetable at the beginning so posters can easily know when to post. I mean, reproduce the "DRAFT" timetable in the first post of the new thread.  

Edited June 1, 2023 by Valentinian

[Severus Alexander]

15 minutes ago, Valentinian said:

If this is the thread itself, good. However, if you are intending to start a new thread for the images, please include a copy of the timetable at the beginning so posters can easily know to post. I mean, reproduce the "DRAFT" timetable in the first post of the new thread.  

It will indeed be a new thread, and I will most certainly include the official schedule in post #1, don’t worry. 🙃 I’ll remove the “draft” text overlay though, of course. (The reason I did it this way: when we posted the draft schedule in the Roman thread, it wasn’t marked as “draft.” There were some changes, and at least one person ended up confusing the draft schedule with the final schedule. I wanted to make sure that didn’t happen this time!)

I look forward to your contributions, @Valentinian!

Edited June 1, 2023 by Severus Alexander

[Al Kowsky]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:43 PM, Severus Alexander said:

Good news! We’ll be continuing @CPK’s magnificent portrait thread here in the Byzantine subforum, with yours truly taking over as thread Caesar. I hope all you Byzantine fans will join in! To encourage participation I’ll be offering a prize or prizes of some sort, tba, available only to regular contributors.

A posting schedule consisting of 2-day slots devoted to each set of portraits worked very well, as did the switch time of 3pm Eastern, so we’ll continue with those traditions here unless there’s a chorus of objections. The purpose of the current post is to solicit feedback on my proposed schedule, but first let me give you a feel for how the thread will work.

The focus in the Roman subforum was on your favourite portrait of each personality in your collection. Typically this was your highest grade, most artistic portrait in your opinion. Given the nature of Byzantine portraiture I’m going to expand that a bit. Besides your “best” portrait in that sense, I’ll ask people to include portraits that are intriguing for other reasons, e.g. amusing portraits (really bad ones, silly overstrikes etc.), or having special features (unusual crowns, scowls, or whatever).

Some personalities are very difficult to obtain portraits of, e.g. Artavasdus. In these cases you’ll be invited to post a coin of theirs even if they’re not portrayed on it. Similarly for obscure members of the emperor’s family, as listed in the schedule. Even if a portrait is readily available, you might consider that personality to be “checked off” your list if you have a coin with their name on it. By all means, post that coin-o, but the thread emphasis will be portraiture.

I’m going to create the new thread this Thursday. This isn’t it! As I said, the purpose of this thread is to seek your feedback on the proposed schedule. Speak now or forever hold your peace!

(That said, feel free to give us a juicy sneak peek at one of your favourite Byzantine portraits here.)

Re: the schedule, here are couple of areas I’d particularly like feedback on:

One complication arises with co-emperors. When we get to Basil II, for example, do we start posting him with Nic II Phocas, with whom he was co-(but junior)-emperor? Or do we wait until he’s senior emperor? In the schedule below I’ve gone with the following approach: on coins issued under Nic II it’s OK to post Basil II coins with him as junior emperor, but not Basil II coins from his reign as senior emperor. This makes the most practical sense, it seems to me, as the junior Basil II coins will always feature a portrait of Nic II too (off the top of my head). More generally, it’s usually a two birds with one stone kinda situation. Right? Mistakes will inevitably happen, of course, with some coins being posted too early or too late. Think of these occasions as teaching/learning opportunities! We can all get a better understanding of the chronology of our collections.

There’s also the question of how to handle the period of the anonymous folles in the 11th century, where several portraits are only available in gold, and so outside the scope of many collections. My solution here is to glom them together into two large groups first, excluding the anonymous folles, and then to have a slot devoted entirely to the anonymous folles. Let me know what you think of that strategy. (If you’re unclear on what I mean just look at the schedule below and you’ll see what I’m talking about).

I didn’t do much of a proofread, so please point out typos and other clerical errors, as well as any missing personalities you notice. I followed Sear’s Byzantine Coins and their Values to compile the list.

S.A., The coinage of Heraclius as emperor spans 31 years (610-641), & his position as exarch with his father is only 2 years, 608-610. The coins as exarch are extremely rare & I doubt many Forum members has an examples of this type. On the other hand, as emperor his coin are plentiful & there are three major types: Heraclius depicted alone, Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine, & Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine & Heraclonas. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend two days with each of the major 3 types instead of lumping them all together for only 2 days, & keep the exarch coins as a separate type 🤔?

[Severus Alexander]

7 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

S.A., The coinage of Heraclius as emperor spans 31 years (610-641), & his position as exarch with his father is only 2 years, 608-610. The coins as exarch are extremely rare & I doubt many Forum members has an examples of this type. On the other hand, as emperor his coin are plentiful & there are three major types: Heraclius depicted alone, Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine, & Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine & Heraclonas. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend two days with each of the major 3 types instead of lumping them all together for only 2 days, & keep the exarch coins as a separate type 🤔?

Sorry, Al, by the time I saw this I had already made the new images of the schedule! 🥺 Not sure I would have made the suggested change, anyway... I don't think it makes sense to effectively devote a whole 48h slot to, say, Heraclonas. (Note that the focus of the thread is portraits, not types.)

That said, you're surely right that we'll see quite a few coins in the Heraclius slot! 😄