Tesauros Posted May 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 25, 2023 Hello, some time ago i encountered this coin online, cant find the original site but downloaded the photo. Would anyone by able to tell what kind of coin it is? Silver and the weight should be 3g. Propably Andronikos II. or Andronikos III. Palailogos?. Thank you very much for any information 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glebe Posted May 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 25, 2023 The legends are hopelessly garbled - this is not an official issue. Ross G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesauros Posted May 26, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted May 26, 2023 9 hours ago, Glebe said: The legends are hopelessly garbled - this is not an official issue. Ross G. Thank you very much, have you any idea in what part of the empire could it be struck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glebe Posted May 26, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 26, 2023 14 hours ago, Tesauros said: Thank you very much, have you any idea in what part of the empire could it be struck? Sorry, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted May 29, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 29, 2023 On 5/25/2023 at 6:21 PM, Glebe said: The legends are hopelessly garbled - this is not an official issue. Ross G. fake of a tornese 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesauros Posted May 30, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 9 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: fake of a tornese Hello, what makes you think its a fake? It looks well struck, the detail is also fine overall i believe its a period coin but of unknown origin. Thank you very much and have a nice day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted May 30, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 30, 2023 6 hours ago, Tesauros said: Hello, what makes you think its a fake? It looks well struck, the detail is also fine overall i believe its a period coin but of unknown origin. Thank you very much and have a nice day. Difficult to explain other than everything about the style of this coin is wrong. I have never once seen a coin plated in any work look like this. Having handled thousands of coins from this era and soent significant time sifting through sales archives, I am unaware of any genuine example like this. Find an example like it in an institution…you wont. Dont presume odd style indicates an imitative origin. It could just as well be fake (as is the case here). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieCollector Posted May 30, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 30, 2023 Not sure whether this is fake or imitative, but it is definitely not Byzantine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 31, 2023 The standing figure looks like a pirate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotwheelsearl Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 31, 2023 I personally don’t think it’s a modern counterfeit. The strike issues alone would be hard to replicate today without the dual-hammer strike method. I am leaning towards contemporary counterfeit, or a “barbarous” imitation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesauros Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 21 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: Difficult to explain other than everything about the style of this coin is wrong. I have never once seen a coin plated in any work look like this. Having handled thousands of coins from this era and soent significant time sifting through sales archives, I am unaware of any genuine example like this. Find an example like it in an institution…you wont. Dont presume odd style indicates an imitative origin. It could just as well be fake (as is the case here). A coin not being in museum or other establishment does not neccesary mean its a fake, in my country i handled coins that are known in 1 or 2 examples that not even museums have. I tend to think its a imitation or unofficial issue rather than a fake. Thank you everyone for the insight. Lovely forum i discovered 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 31, 2023 5 hours ago, Tesauros said: A coin not being in museum or other establishment does not neccesary mean its a fake, in my country i handled coins that are known in 1 or 2 examples that not even museums have. I tend to think its a imitation or unofficial issue rather than a fake. Thank you everyone for the insight. Lovely forum i discovered No offense but if you think this coin is genuine, I can’t and won’t take your opinions on late Byzantine numismatics seriously. It might be the worst fake tornese I have seen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 31, 2023 I have a moment to write this now: Why is this tornese fake? STYLE To the untrained eye, this will not be apparent. However, once you have handled these coins long enough it becomes the easiest indicator of all. Yes, Byzantine coins are crude. No, that does not mean style varied. Byzantine coins are uniform in design and easily grouped together. Extreme attention to detail was paid to every one of the coins. Style does not vary from a series of coins issued at the same mint. It is remarkably consistent. Your coin is awful is this regard. The Emperor is executed in horrendous fashion with a style so far from the normal issues that it is laughable. REGALIA AND ICONOGRAPHY Here is an area where Byzantine mint workers paid the utmost attention. Divitision? Loros? Maniakion? Orarion? Chlamys? Your modern faker won’t understand what any of these are or mean. The Byzantine mint engraver certainly did. Why does your early 13th century tornese have a loros on a tornese of Andronikos II….and underneath what appears to be the worst attempted depiction of the chlamys I have seen? This is an impossibility. Why are your pendilia represented in a fashion not seen on these tornses? Why does the stemma have a cross? Where is the Manus Dei? Did the engraver forget that too? Why are there stars above the legend? Did the engraver decide to add extra details for the fun of it? I will not begin to discuss the reverse because I believe my point is made abundantly clear already…but believe me that has as many issues or more 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted May 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted May 31, 2023 I have not even touched on the obverse legend formatting nor the weight. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Simon Posted June 1, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 1, 2023 @Tesauros you have just heard from some of the best people I know for post 1204 Byzantine coinage, @TheTrachyEnjoyer and @Glebe. I would not take their answers lightly, neither are being rude and neither likes disappointing a collector. Put the coin aside and as you continue to collect you will see their point of view. In the meantime, please post whatever you have questions on and of course new finds, we all like to learn. Simon 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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