An 8 reales cob with a swastika chop mark

[robinjojo]

While I would normally post this coin on the World forum, it has a very interesting "chop mark", basically what we would call a countermark on an ancient coin.  Chop marks are small punches that were used by merchants in the east to signify that a given coin was tested and approved by the merchant for its silver content.  It is not unusual to see Spanish and Latin American republic coins with multiple marks on them; apparently every merchant or banker felt obligated to administer his or her chop mark on coins passing through.  The chop marks are usually Chinese characters, but that can vary greatly, with some very scarce incuse types appearing on some coins.

Well, this coin has only one such chop mark, but a somewhat unusual one, at least one that I haven't seen during my collecting of Spanish colonial trade coins.  This chop mark is in the form of a swastika, on the cross side in the upper left quadrant.  This is a symbol that has an ancient past, hence my posting this thread here.

The swastika is an ancient symbol, appearing much in the east, where this coin undoubted circulated.  The symbol appears in Indian and Chinese culture, as well as in others.  

In Hindu tradition, the emblem is frequently used at festive occasions such as weddings (Credit: Alamy)

Here's the coin:

Potosi, Alta Peru, 8 reales, Philip IV, (162)9, assayer T (Juan Ximenez de Tapia).

Paoletti 182 KM 19.a

26.77 grams

This coin, which arrived today, is in pretty decent shape, considering, according to the seller, that it was salvaged from a river, which I find very plausible.  A number of Spanish colonial and mainland cobs have been recovered from the Musi River, in ISouthern Sumatra, ndonesia over many years.  This could very well be one of those coins, very dark, with areas sediment (which makes it very appealing to me), but no evidence of salt water corrosion.  The date, part of which can be see on the cross side, upper left, is (162)9, with a very clear, bold 9.

 

Here's a larger image of the chop mark:

 

It is indeed unfortunate that this symbol was appropriated by the Nazi Party, its association with war and genocide is firmly embedded in our minds, as it should be, but as a symbol of ancient origin, it does have a history that cuts across cultures, religions and civilizations, with a significance and meaning that has nothing to do with hate or racial superiority..  

Edited March 29, 2023 by robinjojo

[sand]

The swastika looks iffy to me. I'm not convinced, that it's anything other than random scratches and random damage. Sort of like the following recent thread.

It's an interesting Spanish colonial coin.

Here's my Potosi piece of eight.

Spain. Philip II. Silver 8 Reales "Piece Of Eight". 1589 AD To 1591 AD. Potosi Mint (In What Is Now Bolivia). Assayer RL. 37.7 mm. 27.20 grams. Paoletti 97. Sedwick P13. KM 5.1.

Edited March 30, 2023 by sand

[robinjojo]

I see what you mean.  I think the chop mark is quite intentional, much deeper symmetrical and well defined compared to the Alexander tetradrachm of the other thread, which has definite graffiti that appears to be most of a  swastika, but kind of hard to make a firm judgement. 

The chop mark on the cob is quite deep and I don't think it is graffiti or random marks.  However, just below it, in the large photo, there are some scratches that could be random or graffiti. 

Based on my experience collecting these coins, chop marks occur far less frequently on cobs than they do on the later machine struck coins.  Perhaps that has to do with few of these coins making the trip east compared to later issues, but that's just a guess on my part.

I came across this 8 reales on eBay of Charles IV, 1790, Mexico with some pretty typical chop marks.  On the reverse (shield side) there is a swastika chop mark on to the lower left, so this symbol has been used, but is unusual compared to what is normally encountered.

 

Thanks

Edited March 30, 2023 by robinjojo

[robinjojo]

40 minutes ago, sand said:

The swastika looks iffy to me. I'm not convinced, that it's anything other than random scratches and random damage. Sort of like the following recent thread.

It's an interesting Spanish colonial coin.

Here's my Potosi piece of eight.

Spain. Philip II. Silver 8 Reales "Piece Of Eight". 1589 AD To 1591 AD. Potosi Mint (In What Is Now Bolivia). Assayer RL. 37.7 mm. 27.20 grams. Paoletti 97. Sedwick P13. KM 5.1.

That's a very attractive coin!  The detail is very nice.

[Al Kowsky]

5 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I see what you mean.  I think the chop mark is quite intentional, much deeper symmetrical and well defined compared to the Alexander tetradrachm of the other thread, which has definite graffiti that appears to be most of a  swastika, but kind of hard to make a firm judgement. 

The chop mark on the cob is quite deep and I don't think it is graffiti or random marks.  However, just below it, in the large photo, there are some scratches that could be random or graffiti. 

Based on my experience collecting these coins, chop marks occur far less frequently on cobs than they do on the later machine struck coins.  Perhaps that has to do with few of these coins making the trip east compared to later issues, but that's just a guess on my part.

I came across this 8 reales on eBay of Charles IV, 1790, Mexico with some pretty typical chop marks.  On the reverse (shield side) there is a swastika chop mark on to the lower left, so this symbol has been used, but is unusual compared to what is normally encountered.

 

Thanks

The small size of the chop marks indicate it didn't circulate in mainland China, but most likely a smaller country or island in Southeast Asia. The swastika is an ancient Buddhist symbol & rarely appears as a chop mark. I remember seeing the swastika on Buddhist shrines in Viet Nam 😉.

[robinjojo]

Thanks, Al. 

I think this coin was found in southern Sumatra, which matches your theory.  The coins found were very dark, almost black, from submersion in fresh water for centuries.  

[Sol_Invictus]

I have a 8 Reales coin of Carlos IV that may have a similar chopmark on the reverse to the one shown in the e-bay listing. The chopmark in question is on the column to the left of the shield. The upper left arm of the swastika, if that's what it is, is missing, possibly because it extended off of the column. I must admit that I do have a strong negative gut-level reaction to seeing these, even though intellectually I know that this mark, made in this context, would have symbolized Buddha's footprint, and have had absolutely nothing to do with the Third Reich (which wouldn't even exist until the subsequent century anyway).

[AussieCollector]

4 hours ago, Sol_Invictus said:

I must admit that I do have a strong negative gut-level reaction to seeing these, even though intellectually I know that this mark, made in this context, would have symbolized Buddha's footprint, and have had absolutely nothing to do with the Third Reich (which wouldn't even exist until the subsequent century anyway).

So much this.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

It's a really cool cob! An 8 reales cob is on my numismatic bucket list.

 

 

[robinjojo]

2 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

It's a really cool cob! An 8 reales cob is on my numismatic bucket list.

 

 

Thanks

The 1629 T 8 reales from Potosi is actually a more common date.  Many coins with this date were part of a large hoard found in Porto Bello, Panama, deposited around 1630.  Cobs from this hoard are very distinctive for their attractive red earth deposits.