Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Some Visigothic Tremisses were shown in another thread. I thought I open a new thread for this particular series, so that it does not get burried under barbaric coins. I have quite a few Visigothic coins. I keep them in a bank vault most of the time and have never really photographed them before. I start off with a Tremissis in the name of Libius Severus (461-465). Obv.: DN SEVERVS PF AVG Rev.: VICTORT AAVGGG - COMOB Mint: Toulouse (?) Weight: 1.45 gr., 14mm, 6h The condition is not great, but coins in the name of Libius Severus are much rarer than those of his successors. Note the reverse was copied from a Solidus and not from a Tremissis. The coin will have been minted during the reign of Theoderic II (453-466) or Euric (466-484). Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 18 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Here is another Visigothic Tremissis of the Kingdom of Toulouse. The coin was minted in the name of Zeno (474-491) Obv.: C (inverted) N Zeno PERP AVG Rev.: VICTORI A AVGGG - CONOB Mint: Toulouse (?) Measurements: 1.3gr, 14mm, 6h The coin was minted under Euric (466-484) or Alaric II (484-507). These coins were mentioned in a Burgundian law code, which forbid the circulation of these coins in the Burgundian kingdom, because of their low weight standard. The coins were called Alariciani in the law code. Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn235 Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 Very nice! No coins for me to show (only Vandal and Ostrogoth) but I do have this handy chart to help tell the difference 7 3 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 The picture is probably closer to the truth than its makers realized. The term Visi or Vesi means the shining or glaring Goths. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) The next Tremissis was minted in the name of Anastasius (491-518). Obv.: DN ANASTASIVS PF AVG Rev.: VICTORIA AVGVSTORVA T - COMOB Mint: Narbonne or Toledo (?) Measurements: 1.47gr, 14mm, 4h This coin can theoretically have been minted under Alaric II (484-507), Gesalic (507-511), Theoderic the Great as regent (511-526) or Amalaric (511-531). Given the new style and weight standard, I think that these coins were not minted before the battle of Voillé in 507. I think Theoderic the Great is the most likely instigator of the new-style Tremissis for the Visigothic kingdom of Toledo. Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) I have a second piece, probably from the same dies: Measurements: 1.51 gr, 14mm, 4h Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Great coins! For the second Anastasian one from a Roma Auction, the earliest I could trace it was Freeman & Sear. Manhattan Sale II. 04/01/2011. Is any info on the provenance of the first one? Agree that Theodoric is the likely issuer: - The coin below of a similar style has Θ at the beginning of the legend - Theodoric? Cannot find earlier provenances, but it came from a Spanish auction (no old tickets were included). - The weight is now aligned with the Ostrogothic series. - I have never come across a PERP version to link to the early period. Regarding Toledo, it is hard to know. One was found in the Alise-Saint-Reine (Alesia) Hoard, far from Toledo, but it was deposited much later. There were a few of similar types in the Gourdon Hoard. It would be good to know of any found in Spain. Cayón Subastas. Auction December 2015. 12/12/2015 Edited March 28, 2023 by Rand 15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Great coin! I think this is actually an Ostrogothic issue. If so, it belongs to the first issues under Theoderic. I agree, that the Theta is likely Theoderic's mark. Also, this coin became the model for Burgundian and Visigothic Tremissis, while the Ostrogoths soon adopted the new style with a facing Victoria. I could be Metlich 10a. The same may actually be the case for my two Tremisses in the name of Anastasius. According to Metlich, the T at the end of the reverse legend also functioned as mark of Theoderic. Metlich wrote (p.21) that the T was so small that it was soon dropped, suggesting that this is also an early issue. As for provenance, the second coin comes from Roma and CNG. I don't have a provenance for the first one right now. I may have bought it via Ebay. Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) I have an Ostrogothic pair of VPW type - looks a bit different, with a more typical Italian style, but not far away in style. So the previous one could related. Still the obverse style follows the same pattern and legends as your typical Visigothic coins. I doubt it was Theodoric who introduced the VPW type - likely Burgundians in 491, using spoils of the Liguria invasion. They started it from a PERP issue (which paralleled with similar solidi) and continued the series. I feel Theodoric minted some VPW to use for the 511 campaign against Burgundians and Franks. Numismatica Ars Classica NAC AG. Auction 93. 24/05/2016 Numismatica Ars Classica NAC AG. Auction 93. 24/05/2016 Edited March 28, 2023 by Rand 10 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 Is here anyone with an Ostrogoth „Amalaswintha“ minting? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) These are fanastic coins! As for the dating, I don't know Metlich (following Grierson and Blackburn) argues that the VPW type was introduced by Theoderic. The presence of Theta and T on these coins suggests that this happened before AD 500, when Theoderic agreed to drop all personal marks on gold coins. Here is a Burgundian type: Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 15 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said: Is here anyone with an Ostrogoth „Amalaswintha“ minting? There are no coins in the name of Amalaswintha, despite some claims to the contrary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 Yes, Methlich has a good reasoning point. However, plenty of Visigothic coins with Theta or T are clearly from the end of the Anastasian reign. There are also a few solidi with a ’T’ on the chest, which are later from the reign, but those are hard to attribute and could be Clovis’s son (I do not own them to show). Roma Numismatics. Auction 11. 07/04/2016 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 @Tejas and @Rand, these are all astounding, and your coolly arcane back and forth on the scholarship is, at least vicariously, fascinating. @Tejas, you couldn't have been more right to keep this separate from the 'barbarous' thread. To wallow in the obvious, (largely or mainly domestic) 'barbarous' minors are an entirely separate beast from coins demonstrably known to have been issued by discrete, real-live Germanic kingdoms. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 42 minutes ago, Tejas said: There are no coins in the name of Amalaswintha, despite some claims to the contrary. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces152039.html Ah ok, I thought this was one of the coins. Too bad. Then this is rather wishful thinking (or just profit increasing)... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Rand said: Yes, Methlich has a good reasoning point. However, plenty of Visigothic coins with Theta or T are clearly from the end of the Anastasian reign. There are also a few solidi with a ’T’ on the chest, which are later from the reign, but those are hard to attribute and could be Clovis’s son (I do not own them to show). I suppose the problem is that the imitators would have also copied the Ts and Thetas, without knowing what they meant. Tomasini, Wallace "The Barbaric Tremissis in Spain and southern France, Anastasius to Leovigild" has a detailed discussion about the dating and possible origin of the VGW tremisses (pp 45) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 54 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said: Ah ok, I thought this was one of the coins. Too bad. Then this is rather wishful thinking (or just profit increasing)... This is a Quarter-Siliqua of Witiges. These coins were previously attributed to Amalaswintha, but this attribution is no longer accepted, for the following reasons: 1. There are Half-Siliaquae of Witiges, but no Quarters. It is inconceivable that he didn't mint Quarter-Siliquae. He put his name of the Half-Siliquae and revived the (modified) Theoderic monogram on the Quarters, probably to stress is link to the Amal dynasty to which he did not belong. 2. There are stylistic reasons to place these coins in the reign of Witiges, rather than Amalaswintha. 3. There was really no reason or cause for Amalaswintha to have minted coins in hier own name. The Gothic nobles did not accept a queen, so she ruled in the name of her son Athalaric, whose name and monogram was put on the coins. The Quarter-Siliquae of Witiges are rare and desirable. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Here is a Tremissis in the name of Justin I (518-527) Obv.: DI IVSTINVS PP AVG Rev.: VICTORIA AVGSTORVM - COMOB Mint: Narbonne or Toledo (?) Measurements: 1.44 gr., 14mm, 6h The bust has a cross on the breast, meaning that it was minted later, i.e. after the types without the cross. I think the coin was minted during the reigns of Amalaric (511-531) or Theudis (531-548); probably late in the reign of Amalaric. Edited March 28, 2023 by Tejas 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted March 28, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Tejas said: This is a Quarter-Siliqua of Witiges. These coins were previously attributed to Amalaswintha, but this attribution is no longer accepted, for the following reasons: 1. There are Half-Siliaquae of Witiges, but no Quarters. It is inconceivable that he didn't mint Quarter-Siliquae. He put his name of the Half-Siliquae and revived the (modified) Theoderic monogram on the Quarters, probably to stress is link to the Amal dynasty to which he did not belong. 2. There are stylistic reasons to place these coins in the reign of Witiges, rather than Amalaswintha. 3. There was really no reason or cause for Amalaswintha to have minted coins in hier own name. The Gothic nobles did not accept a queen, so she ruled in the name of her son Athalaric, whose name and monogram was put on the coins. The Quarter-Siliquae of Witiges are rare and desirable. Oh no - you are destroying my dream of once owning a coin of my beloved Amalaswintha. This makes me really sad... 😄 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tejas said: I suppose the problem is that the imitators would have also copied the Ts and Thetas, without knowing what they meant. Tomasini, Wallace "The Barbaric Tremissis in Spain and southern France, Anastasius to Leovigild" has a detailed discussion about the dating and possible origin of the VGW tremisses (pp 45) ‘Nothing is certain.’ Lord Elrond Tomasini’s work is grand, but it was done nearly 60 years ago using a fraction of material available now, including some important types. As great as it stands, the work could have been strengthened by Correlating with solidi types. Linking with coins in Zeno’s name to help with mints attribution. The reverse changed to VPW, but obverse styles have some promise. More consideration of historical events that could be driving the minting. Metallurgical considerations. I keep returning to Tomasini’s book … Still, it may be good to have an open mind. Thank you for your coins and thoughts! Edited March 28, 2023 by Rand 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) These are great coins. Unfortunately, I don't have any, apart, perhaps, from this, which I'm assuming is Visigothic since it has Romanesque features and was found near a Visigothic tremissis.Visigoth Cut Quarter Tremissis, 507-586Visigothic. Gold, 8mm, 0.26g. Profile bust; partial AVG legend. Victory; partial legend. Found on the Isle of Wight in 2021; Portable Antiquities Scheme IOW-FA583E. Found near a Visigothic tremissis of Leovigild, IOW-FA517C. Edited March 28, 2023 by John Conduitt 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 9 minutes ago, John Conduitt said: These are great coins. Unfortunately, I don't have any, apart, perhaps, from this, which I'm assuming is Visigothic since it has Romanesque features and was found near a Visigothic tremissis.Visigoth Cut Quarter Tremissis, 507-586Visigothic. Gold, 8mm, 0.26g. Profile bust; partial AVG legend. Victory; partial legend. Found on the Isle of Wight in 2021; Portable Antiquities Scheme IOW-FA583E. Found near a Visigothic tremissis of Leovigild, IOW-FA517C. Pity someone needed change. Likely Visigothic, but cannot see very close dies in the Anastasian period, so perhaps from a later period. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 28, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2023 6 hours ago, Tejas said: Here is a Burgundian type: Nice! Is it the Hunt's sale coin? The William Herbert Hunt Collection. 05/12/1990 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted March 29, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) You seem to have a great grasp of provenances. I hope to benefit from that with other coins as well. Thanks a lot. Edited March 29, 2023 by Tejas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted March 29, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, John Conduitt said: These are great coins. Unfortunately, I don't have any, apart, perhaps, from this, which I'm assuming is Visigothic since it has Romanesque features and was found near a Visigothic tremissis.Visigoth Cut Quarter Tremissis, 507-586Visigothic. Gold, 8mm, 0.26g. Profile bust; partial AVG legend. Victory; partial legend. Found on the Isle of Wight in 2021; Portable Antiquities Scheme IOW-FA583E. Found near a Visigothic tremissis of Leovigild, IOW-FA517C. Actually, please have a look at the first coin on the thread, posted by Tejas. Timewise, this would be far away from Leovigild, though. Edited March 29, 2023 by Rand 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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