Al Kowsky Posted March 19, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 19, 2023 Friday gold closed at $1,989.00 an oz. on the New York Comex, that was an increase of $69.80 😲. No doubt this price increase was triggered by the two California banks making bad investments with depositors money. I calculated the gold melt value of a Justinian solidus in my collection pictured below at $290.00. Then I noticed the the Justinian solidus pictured below that hammered at CNG E-Auction 534, lot 739, for $425.00. That coin was in an ANACS slab & graded AU55. That was surely a bargain win for someone ☺️. https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-8Z5DIO/justinian-i-527-565-av-solidus-19mm-6h-constantinople-mint-2nd-officina-struck-542-565-in-anacs-encapsulation-6211754-graded-au-55 I've seen similar common dates in a raw state sell for less than that lately 😉. If you were contemplating adding a common date Byzantine solidus to your collection now might be a good time to do it. 11 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 23, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2023 It is a strange economy when the bullion value of Byzantine Gold starts to enter into one’s calculations of value, but here we are. At a generous estimate of 4.5 grams of pure gold in a solidus, with gold at $2000/troy ounce, I calculate today’s melt value (Egad! I can’t believe I am writing this) at just a bit below 300 US dollars, so you are spot on, @Al Kowsky. Pun intended. Premiums on common modern gold bullion quarter ounce coins look to be about 20%. This is a rather high percentage historically speaking, but a quick glance at online bullion dealers supports this number. Considered as a bullion coin, a solidus today would command a price of about $360. In 2000, the price of gold was slightly less than $300/troy ounce. Today’s gold price is a seven-fold increase over 23 years. IF a similar increase transpires over the next 23 years, a common solidus would have a melt value of about $2100. IF the 20% premium over melt still applied, a common solidus would command over $2500. I have a solidus in my collection that was sold by Stack’s in 1960 for $45. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted March 24, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Hrefn said: I have a solidus in my collection that was sold by Stack’s in 1960 for $45. I am generously prepared to offer double that for the coin 😁 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted March 24, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2023 Not too long ago I was narrowly outbid on a Justinian I solidus. It would have been my first ancient gold coin. Maybe someday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 24, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 24, 2023 This is very interesting. I apologize for the incredibly basic question, but coming from someone who knows next to nothing about these coins, which would be decent rulers/coins to look at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted March 24, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) I didn't realize that Byzantine solidi were so relatively inexpensive. 4th century Roman Imperial solidi in decent condition will generally cost anywhere from just above $1,000 to $2,000 and up. (My four Roman solidi, issued by Valentinian I, Valens, Arcadius, and Honorius, all purchased between April 2021 and October 2022, and all in what I would consider "very fine" or better condition, all cost between $1,000 and $2,000 -- three of them between $1,000 and $1,500. Two of the four have documented provenance back to the 1960s, one in France and the other in Germany.) Edited March 24, 2023 by DonnaML 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 24, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2023 Well, a solidus that hammers for $425 as above described by @Al Kowsky costs close to another $100 in auctioneer’s commission, so true price is more like $525. Let us leave aside postage, currency conversion fees, insurance, possible opaque handling charges, and sales taxes or VAT, because unless you purchase in person, these charges are equally applicable to public auction or private commercial purchase. So, our task is to determine whether we can find some Byzantine solidi retailing for about $525 or less. Let us peruse the internet and sort results by price. At the commercial site which is something like M A coins, I find two very acceptable coins for under $600. One is a light weight solidus of Maurice Tiberius, and the other is a histamenon nomisma of Constantine X. There are a couple of coins cheaper than that, but I personally would pass on them for various reasons. If we are willing to go to $700, there are several nice examples of various emperors; Constans II, Theodosius II, Focas, and Heraclius. At another commercial site which is something like Vpennies, I find a clipped Justinian weighing only 4.08 grams, but otherwise IMO quite acceptable for just under $500. There are quite a few emperors available for $700 or less, more than on the first site. All these coins, with the probable exception of Constantine X, struck their coins in gold essentially as pure as the technology of the time could make it, and that was close to 24K. I think it should be possible to find solidi of Justinian, Justin II, Maurice Tiberius, Focas, Heraclius with and without his sons, Constans II, and to my surprise Theodosius II, all under $700 which would be coins anyone would be proud to have in his or her collection. I noticed a major dealer selling a beautiful bronze follis of Maxentius for $700 yesterday. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted March 24, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 24, 2023 9 minutes ago, Hrefn said: Well, a solidus that hammers for $425 as above described by @Al Kowsky costs close to another $100 in auctioneer’s commission, so true price is more like $525. Let us leave aside postage, currency conversion fees, insurance, possible opaque handling charges, and sales taxes or VAT, because unless you purchase in person, these charges are equally applicable to public auction or private commercial purchase. So, our task is to determine whether we can find some Byzantine solidi retailing for about $525 or less. Let us peruse the internet and sort results by price. At the commercial site which is something like M A coins, I find two very acceptable coins for under $600. One is a light weight solidus of Maurice Tiberius, and the other is a histamenon nomisma of Constantine X. There are a couple of coins cheaper than that, but I personally would pass on them for various reasons. If we are willing to go to $700, there are several nice examples of various emperors; Constans II, Theodosius II, Focas, and Heraclius. At another commercial site which is something like Vpennies, I find a clipped Justinian weighing only 4.08 grams, but otherwise IMO quite acceptable for just under $500. There are quite a few emperors available for $700 or less, more than on the first site. All these coins, with the probable exception of Constantine X, struck their coins in gold essentially as pure as the technology of the time could make it, and that was close to 24K. I think it should be possible to find solidi of Justinian, Justin II, Maurice Tiberius, Focas, Heraclius with and without his sons, Constans II, and to my surprise Theodosius II, all under $700 which would be coins anyone would be proud to have in his or her collection. I noticed a major dealer selling a beautiful bronze follis of Maxentius for $700 yesterday. I'm surprised at such prices for Theodosius II, whose solidi in my experience cost more in the range of the earlier emperors in his family. See https://www.vcoins.com/en/Search.aspx?search=true&searchQuery="theodosius+II"+"solidus"&searchQueryExclude=&searchCategory=0&searchCategoryLevel=2&searchCategoryAncient=True&searchCategoryUs=True&searchCategoryWorld=True&searchCategoryMints=True&searchBetween=0&searchBetweenAnd=0&searchDate=&searchUseThesaurus=True&searchDisplayCurrency=&searchDisplay=1&searchIdStore=0&searchQueryAnyWords=&searchExactPhrase=&searchTitleAndDescription=True&searchDateType=0&searchMaxRecords=100&SearchOnSale=False&Unassigned=False : most, as with my solidi mentioned above from the 4th century, are for sale at prices between $1,000 and $2,000, with one very poor example for $750, and, at the other end of the scale, one from Shanna Schmidt (who else?) for $5,500. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 24, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2023 now all I can find on Theo II is a coin for 750 euro, and it has a fair bit of wear. I think your notion of typical prices is completely accurate, @DonnaML. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted March 24, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 In 1973 when I was honorably discharged from the Army the gold price was was $42.22 an oz., & the melt value of a solidus was $6.45. You could buy common date solidi at that time for $15.00 each that I thought was too much 🤣. Anyway let's talk about today. When looking for bargain priced solidi today you have to look farther than your own nose. Posted below are recent listings from Coin Archives of solidi that I consider bargains. https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2155160&AucID=5182&Lot=6364&Val=49a440ccc5ab38f7e3ed2ff06cf66ef7 https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2149773&AucID=5159&Lot=58&Val=7b9f5e01860f92837beb49b83081664d https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2149786&AucID=5159&Lot=71&Val=01b7b7c000291414986936cf43359496 https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2149787&AucID=5159&Lot=72&Val=9ac11bb4496a15af64bf014c3f644b9a https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2149795&AucID=5159&Lot=80&Val=15d517e814dfd2a91bcf7a900c05d114 https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2187610&AucID=5257&Lot=800&Val=60b8e87528b8262201fcb4eb9967e848 https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2187612&AucID=5257&Lot=802&Val=b0cc835b001e79a14fd5131eef16d23e 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edessa Posted March 24, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2023 ZENO.RU - Latest imitations I have always been intrigued by these local imitations of Sulayhid coins used in the Red Sea trade. Comments and one apparent purity test mentioned on a Zeno example seem to indicate that these coins are roughly 50% fine. If true, they should have a gram of gold and be worth about $70 USD melt. For the past 15 years these have been selling for between $75 and 100 USD. Heritage is currently selling slabbed examples in this price range. So, if you'd like a slabbed, historic gold coin for just over melt value... Arabia, Sulayhid. Ali b. Muhammad, 439-473 H (AD 1047-1081). Debased AV Dinar (22mm, 2.20g). Local imitation, immobilized issue of 451 H, Zabid(?) mint. Ref: Album 1075.3; cf. ICV-1103 (for prototype). Very Fine. Note from a 2018 Stephen Album lot: "Probably struck locally in Yemen, perhaps by the Hamdanids of San'a". 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted March 24, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2023 Following up on @Edessa's post, I bought this al Ma'mun dinar for its current melt value including auction fees, late last year: Dated 204h = 819-20 it was issued just as al Ma'mun put down a rebellion in Baghdad and entered the city. Fairly scarce. And a nice bargain I think! 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellinore Posted April 20, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted April 20, 2023 Though short of cash, I thought it wise to buy this nice Justinian solidus on a coin fair in February. 275 euros is 300 dollars. It was offered by a venerable old seller whom I know well, who very well might have bought it 50 years ago. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted April 20, 2023 · Member Share Posted April 20, 2023 4 hours ago, Pellinore said: Though short of cash, I thought it wise to buy this nice Justinian solidus on a coin fair in February. 275 euros is 300 dollars. It was offered by a venerable old seller whom I know well, who very well might have bought it 50 years ago. Good deal! What is the weight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor KenDorney Posted April 20, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted April 20, 2023 Gold will always hold a premium. Why? I dunno. People have a weird fascination with gold from the beginning of time and as such it will probably always be a good buy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted April 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted April 21, 2023 In the recent N+N auction there was a solidus of Tiberius III on which I bid, only to lose by an enormous margin. In the same auction there was a nice solidus of Justinian with an opening bid of 300 gbp which I placed a low bid on, mostly to see what price it would eventually command. I was quite surprised to get it at the opening bid. After all fees, currency conversion, bank fee, insurance and postage, my cost is almost $550. Not the bargain @Pellinore acquired, but still a good price for a solidus. I think true bargains are more likely to be found at coin shows. Allen Berman predicted face-to-face coin show commerce would benefit from the increase of auction commissions and other fees. Here are dealer pics as it has not arrived yet. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted April 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted April 21, 2023 54 minutes ago, Hrefn said: Allen Berman predicted face-to-face coin show commerce would benefit from the increase of auction commissions and other fees Maybe for generic coins. I haven’t found much of anything in the area I collect at shows. The few times I have, the dealer bought it at auction and charged a 5-10x markup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted April 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) I just noticed I did not buy a coin of Justinian, but of his much scarcer cousin DINUSTINIAN. Now I need a SPONSIANUS to complete the set. Edited April 21, 2023 by Hrefn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voulgaroktonou Posted April 24, 2023 · Member Share Posted April 24, 2023 On 3/23/2023 at 7:33 PM, Hrefn said: It is a strange economy when the bullion value of Byzantine Gold starts to enter into one’s calculations of value, but here we are. At a generous estimate of 4.5 grams of pure gold in a solidus, with gold at $2000/troy ounce, I calculate today’s melt value (Egad! I can’t believe I am writing this) at just a bit below 300 US dollars, so you are spot on, @Al Kowsky. Pun intended. Premiums on common modern gold bullion quarter ounce coins look to be about 20%. This is a rather high percentage historically speaking, but a quick glance at online bullion dealers supports this number. Considered as a bullion coin, a solidus today would command a price of about $360. In 2000, the price of gold was slightly less than $300/troy ounce. Today’s gold price is a seven-fold increase over 23 years. IF a similar increase transpires over the next 23 years, a common solidus would have a melt value of about $2100. IF the 20% premium over melt still applied, a common solidus would command over $2500. I have a solidus in my collection that was sold by Stack’s in 1960 for $45. I remember those prices! This is my first solidus, Justin II. It cost me $32, ca. 1968.... 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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