Who Dis Nummus?

[Orange Julius]

So… the 5th century is an interesting timeframe for the Roman Empire. Along with the west, the coinage (bronze) suffered a drastic decline. I don’t have many coins from this time period but this one was a $1 add-on to another coin. I figured I may get lucky and get a ruler I don’t have or even maybe a rare one. Anyway, I’ve looked and can’t seem to find a match. The obverse is about as unhelpful as you get with “DN” clear as day then… maybe an M or H or one of the other 24 letters (or I guess 21 others for Latin), who knows. I can’t find a monogram that matches the showing right side of the reverse either. I think it’s oriented correctly as the bottom tie of the wreath shows a bit.

So! Who dis nummus?! Thanks!

10-11mm, 0.83 grams

As always, let’s see your wretched scraps of metal they call “coins” from the 5th century. 😉

A quick follow up… I thought it was Marcian… but instead of an “R” the monogram seems to end in “K”? Who knows…

Edited June 14, 2022 by Orange Julius
Clean up

[John Conduitt]

It looks like a K for a half follis.

I have this tiny scrap. I could only attribute it because of the reverse style, which might be wrong, so I feel your pain.

Theodosius II Follis, 425-435

Cyzicus. Bronze, 11mm, 1.13g. Theodosius II, pearl-diademed, draped, cuirassed, right; D N THEODO-SIVS P F AVG. Cross within a wreath; mintmark SMKA (RIC X, 449). Found Oxfordshire.

[BBA]

9 hours ago, Orange Julius said:

So! Who dis nummus?!

Pretty sure it's a Marcian monogram type. It's not a "K" at the right but an "R" (you can kinda see the upper loop)

[Furryfrog02]

1 hour ago, BBA said:

Pretty sure it's a Marcian monogram type. It's not a "K" at the right but an "R" (you can kinda see the upper loop)

Not 100% sure that is correct. The reason being: All the Marcian monograms I can find have the "R" to the right and then the top and bottom of it go to the left to form a triangle. I'm not seeing any triangle on @Orange Julius coin. 

Full disclosure: I know almost nothing of 5th century coinage. I've only got a few different examples myself and they are all pretty raggedy - though I guess that's the norm, no?

Here is my AE4 of Leo I as a prime example.

 

Here is the forvm list of monograms that I frequently use as a reference:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=monogram

Edited June 14, 2022 by Furryfrog02
Added monogram link

[Severus Alexander]

I think you might have something quite special there @Orange Julius!

First, do you think it could actually be heavily encrusted silver?  Because the type it fits best with is this quarter siliqua/120 nummi of Justinian from Ravenna or Rome:

see https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5281043

That said, the style isn’t right, e.g. the very heavy lettering, so I think it’s actually a Germanic imitation of this. Which I believe would be rather rare!  There are plenty of imitations of the Theoderic monogram type, and quite a few of the cross-rho type, but not of this one. Calling @Tejas…

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Severus Alexander

[BBA]

Hey Orange Julius, try turning the reverse upside down.

Edited June 14, 2022 by BBA

[Finn235]

The thickness of the wreath seems to indicate Vandal minting. Checking Wroth, it seems most similar to these Vandalic imitations of Marcian, but with a bungled R portion of the monogram

And as noted by @Severus Alexander the position of the K relative to the wreath does recall these silver issues of Justinian from western mints

[Severus Alexander]

9 hours ago, Finn235 said:

The thickness of the wreath seems to indicate Vandal minting. Checking Wroth, it seems most similar to these Vandalic imitations of Marcian, but with a bungled R portion of the monogram

I agree that if it is indeed AE, @Finn235's suggestion is the leading candidate.  Still cool. 🙂 

Edit: Just adding that I don't think we really know whether these Marcian imitations are Vandal specifically unless this is well supported by find spots.  Finn is spot on about the imitation being related, though, I'd say, and right about the wreath style.

I suppose even if it proves to be AE rather than AR it might imitate the siliqua type.

Also note there's this Phocas type with ΦK, another possible model:

Edited June 15, 2022 by Severus Alexander

[BBA]

Here's the reverse shown upside down. Kind of interesting ... maybe.

[Orange Julius]

Yeah this one is a bit of a head scratcher for me. Thank you everyone for the replies!

Its interesting that you mention silver @Severus Alexander! You can see in the OG photo and this one below that there are flecks of silvery something in the crevices in places. It’s soooo small it’s hard to tell if it’s the remains of a silvery wash to imitate a silver coin or just silica or something. Hard to photograph too… in hand it’s easier to see but doesn’t look as silvery in photos. I’d need a microscope to be sure! …but the coin itself is surely bronze.

In any case, I do think that the wreath style and blocky lettering looks earlier than the 6th century examples… but I don’t know much about this era of coinage so who knows! Anyway, thanks @John Conduitt, @BBA, @Furryfrog02, @Severus Alexander, @Finn235!

@BBA Thanks for flipping the photo, I’m curious to know what you’re thinking! What’s interesting to you?!

I think I may be able to get some better photos if I can get some daylight time. I’ll add better images when I’m able. In the meantime, keep the ideas… and your coins coming!

Edited June 15, 2022 by Orange Julius

[Severus Alexander]

13 minutes ago, Orange Julius said:

…but the coin itself is surely bronze.

You can tell best of course… do you have experience with heavily encrusted silver, though?  There are lots of stories of people being shocked to find silver under the crud in an uncleaned “AE” lots. Just sayin’.  (A pin on the edge + high magnification might resolve that without doing much damage, if you’re game!  Or maybe there’s an easier way to tell, not sure.)

The flecks are interesting too. Plated quarter siliquae do exist!  e.g. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2580091

[Orange Julius]

1 hour ago, Severus Alexander said:

You can tell best of course… do you have experience with heavily encrusted silver, though?  There are lots of stories of people being shocked to find silver under the crud in an uncleaned “AE” lots. Just sayin’.  (A pin on the edge + high magnification might resolve that without doing much damage, if you’re game!  Or maybe there’s an easier way to tell, not sure.)

The flecks are interesting too. Plated quarter siliquae do exist!  e.g. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2580091

I have some limited experience but nothing close to this time frame. Here’s a Domitian denarius that was completely encrusted. I got it for $9 and it cleaned up nicely. I think most were thinking it was a fourrée core rather than solid silver.

As for this coin, it’s really hard to tell. It does have a thick crust and I do see flecks of reflective material but in other spots, where there looks like there was corrosion, it looks to be bronze. I’ll look at it closer in daylight!

Edited June 15, 2022 by Orange Julius

[BBA]

Here's a monogram (not mine) that kind of looks similar ... again maybe

[Roerbakmix]

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

There are lots of stories of people being shocked to find silver under the crud in an uncleaned “AE” lots. Just sayin’.  (A pin on the edge + high magnification might resolve that without doing much damage, if you’re game!

To illustrate, I bought (and cleaned and then sold) this coin last week, listed as ‘Roman coin’:

it is of course a half siliqua of Maurice Tiberius 
 

after briefly (10 sec) of soaking in sodium thiosulphate (which dissolves the silver chlorides), it turned out quite nice:

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Roerbakmix