Question regarding solidus and wear/possible clipping

[ValiantKnight]

Hi everyone. Could a solidus that weighs 4.41 grams and is 20 mm be a result of wear if there are not any obvious signs of clipping? Coin itself has much detail remaining with little overall wear. The only thing that strikes me as odd is that most of the border looks flattened. I’ve attached a few photos:

(Sorry guys. I’m considering acquiring this coin so I won’t post the whole thing)

Thanks for any assistance.

[John Conduitt]

Maybe it was trimmed for jewellery.

[Valentinian]

The target weight for a solidus is close to 4.45 grams. (not 4.50). Any solidus above 4.40 is within normal tolerance. 

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[ValiantKnight]

9 minutes ago, Valentinian said:

The target weight for a solidus is close to 4.45 grams. (not 4.50). Any solidus above 4.40 is within normal tolerance. 

 

Ah ok understood thank you, that is good to know. I had assumed it was 4.5, and since I don’t see as much anything like 4 or 4.1 grams as compared to numbers like 4.45 or 4.47, I couldn’t help but have some doubts.

[Hrefn]

If they are full weight and not obviously mutilated, I am pretty forgiving of a touch of “work” on the edge.   Others may differ, but since some of these coins owe their survival to being repurposed as jewelry, I consider that part of their history, and not an automatic reason to reject them.  With most solidi, they survived in sufficient number that if you wish to be picky, and are willing to pay for a pristine coin, you will find one eventually. 

I do not think this coin would appeal to the audience at Heritage and the TPGS crowd, but I find it a fascinating piece of history and have no regrets about buying it.  Even gilded and ex jewelry I think it is a worthy addition to a collection.  

[ValiantKnight]

22 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

If they are full weight and not obviously mutilated, I am pretty forgiving of a touch of “work” on the edge.   Others may differ, but since some of these coins owe their survival to being repurposed as jewelry, I consider that part of their history, and not an automatic reason to reject them.  With most solidi, they survived in sufficient number that if you wish to be picky, and are willing to pay for a pristine coin, you will find one eventually. 

I do not think this coin would appeal to the audience at Heritage and the TPGS crowd, but I find it a fascinating piece of history and have no regrets about buying it.  Even gilded and ex jewelry I think it is a worthy addition to a collection.  

As someone who’s trying to get more into Carolingians that’s a very cool piece. I would also welcome it into my collection despite its ex-jewelry status, as long as the price reflected this. Same thing with the solidus I am considering, which is why I’m hoping to find out if it is indeed ex-jewelry. Regarding this solidus, what are your thoughts on the “flattened” border and/or the edge @Hrefn? Anything that strikes you as ex-jewelry or other work done?

[Hrefn]

The solidus is doublestruck with a slight die shift, judging by the lettering.  I cannot determine if the thin raised edge outside the circumference of the annular border is due to the double strike, or some work on the edge.  Most I can say is the photos are not definitive.  It is very difficult to tell from en face views.   

[Hrefn]

@ValiantKnight  Here are a few Byzantine gold coins which are all unclipped as far as I can tell.  Their masses are 4.46, 4.46, and 4.48 grams.  The tremissis is also full weight.  I will post the pictures full size so you can compare the edges with your potential acquisition and see what you think.  The leftmost coin is from Ravenna, and the other solidi are from Constantinople.  I am not sure which mint the tremissis is from.  

The next coin is one I initially thought was damaged, but now I think is due to an over strike.  You can see some faint letters above the cross potent on the reverse.  

Unless there are obvious file marks on the edge, I believed many irregularities can be the result of imperfect technique at the mint.  

 

[DonnaML]

The numbers you give don't seem out of line for me compared to those for my own four solidi, all from the mid-4th to early 5th centuries, issued by Valentinian I, Valens, Arcadius, & Honorius respectively: 21.2 mm./4.44 g., 19.5 mm./4.42 g., 20 mm./4.44 g., and 21 mm./4.45 g. And if a coin is ex-jewelry (as at least one of my solidi may be), that doesn't bother me in the least as long as it doesn't look mutilated or extensively repaired.

[DLTcoins]

A related observation. The Arabic mithqal (4.25g), the weight of the Islamic gold dinar, is believed to have been derived not from the theoretical weight of the Byzantine solidus (4.5g) but from the mean weight of Byzantine solidi as encountered in Arabian market cities such as Mecca and Medina in the mid to late 7th century.

Edited January 23, 2023 by DLTcoins

[AussieCollector]

14 hours ago, Valentinian said:

The target weight for a solidus is close to 4.45 grams. (not 4.50). Any solidus above 4.40 is within normal tolerance. 

 

This

[JayAg47]

Here is my solidus with what seems to be a clipping, yet still weighs 4.48g.

And in regards to flat strike, I've seen many Byzantine gold coins to be hammered thin, for example this tremissis I saw on Ma-shops, I assume it literally feels like razor at the edge!

[ValiantKnight]

Thanks all for the additional comments and coins posted. very much appreciated.

Here's one more area of the solidus that I am worried somewhat about. It could be just due to lighting/shadow effect, or just an effect from striking, but to me it kind of looks like a depression/sunken area, like if it got hit by something. There's no corresponding raised surface directly opposite it on the reverse. Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I thought I'd check by posting it. Thanks again for all the assistance.

[ValiantKnight]

Bump. Any thoughts? Thank you.

[Alexios]

If you are not comfortable with it, don't buy it. Trust me. It could very well be fine, but just the fact of you being bothered by it will always draw your attention to those perceived defects. Wait, save up, and buy something you are truly comfortable with, and perhaps has a nice providence to boot. That is my philosophy.  

With that, here is my solidus. The one of the mighty Roman Emperor Anastasius the Prudent. Coming in at 4.4g, with the obvious appearance of wear, I am 100% comfortable with this coin, and I love it to boot.