Siglos, Possibly from Egypt?

[Broucheion]

Hi All,

I mainly collect Ptolemaic coins but over the years I've also broadened my nets to collect any coins from Egypt: Pharaonic, Roman-Egypt, Byzantine-Egypt, and Islamic-Egypt. I would not normally buy the Siglos coin below, since these were probably minted in Asia Minor (See Corfu: "A New Thesis for Siglos and Dareikos").

However,  I noticed a countermark at the 3:00 position that I think ties this coin to Pharaonic Egypt. I believe this countermark was applied in Egypt to designate currency in the possession of a temple. The countermark looks to me to be the hieroglyph of a kneeling man worshiping. This resembles the Gardiner List A4 character that is the determinative for "offer, beseech (dw3)" as well as "to hide, conceal (jmn)". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs#A [verified 21 Jan 2023].

 

ACHAEMINID: ARTAXERXES I to XERXES II, 455-420 BCE
Ar Siglos
Size: 15x13 mm
Weight: ? (not provided by NGC, I assume this is approx 5.55-5.60)
Axis: 11:00

OBV: Great King, bearded, facing right, crowned, two arrows in right, bow in left (half-length figure). Countermark of the hieroglyph of squatting man, worshiping (Gardiner List A4 = dw3, jmn) at 3:00 position. No legend. No border.
REV: Lion head (stylized) facing left, roaring with open mouth, within reverse incuse. No legend. No border.

Notes:
1. NGC Certification NGC 6555654-035.
2. I base my coin ID on info from Forum https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=siglos [verified 21 Jan 2023].
3. Countermarked with hieroglyph of a kneeling man worshiping, which is the Gardiner List A4 character, a determinative for "offer, beseech (dw3)" as well as "to hide, conceal (jmn)". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs#A

Please let me know if you agree with my assertion that this coin could have been part of an Egyptian temple treasury. Also, if you know of any papers on Siglos found or circulating in Egypt, I'd appreciate the references.

P.S., For a similar situation with an Immitative Athena/Owl tetradrachm, see my post on the other list at https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancient-owls.350803/#post-3909062 .

And of course, post your Siglos!

- Broucheion

Edited January 23, 2023 by Broucheion
typo

[Severus Alexander]

Fascinating, and quite plausible I'd say. (The only thing that makes me wonder a bit is the row of dots.) More plausible when considered beside the c/m on the owl, which looks even more like the model you suggest, pharaoh on solar barque. I hope you're able to locate a whole series of these!

[JeandAcre]

@Broucheion, this and your prior post (which I just saw for the first time) are astounding.  Given @Severus Alexander and @The Pontian's valued caveats, I'd be inclined to give the hieroglyphic here a little more latitude, toward having the 'original'  meaning.  Purely on an intuitive basis, given the remove from 'classical' antecedents both in chronology and medium, I'd be leaning toward a measure of variation being no big surprise.  Granted, my main frame of reference for this is nothing more relevant than what happens in medieval European immobilizations.

In other words, I Really Want you to be right!  :<}

[dougsmit]

On 1/21/2023 at 1:33 PM, Broucheion said:

Weight: ? (not provided by NGC, I assume this is approx 5.55-5.60)

 

On 1/21/2023 at 1:33 PM, Broucheion said:

Ar 1/3 Siglos

The weight you give is right for a whole siglos not a 1/3.   It is easy to get interested in countermarks on these coins.  

 

[Broucheion]

6 hours ago, dougsmit said:

The weight you give is right for a whole siglos not a 1/3.

Hi @dougsmit,

Yes, of course you are correct. I’ve updated the text to reflect that. You are certainly right about the counter marks being fascinating.

- Broucheion 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Broucheion

[ominus1]

...it could be...that is an interesting countermark(s)...as Doug Smith says, those are an item of collecting interest....i'll put my two siglos in on this 🙂

[JeandAcre]

Here's my only one, from @CPK via the Cabinet.  I was searching the eponymous thread for who it was who likened the banker's mark to the Safeway (grocery chain)  logo; rats, couldn't find it.  ...No, to wallow in the obvious (never stopped mebefore), @Broucheion's examples are on a completely different level.

[Sulla80]

@Broucheion an Egyptian countermark on a siglos - I sit with @JeandAcre: "I want you to be right" 🙂Also, thanks for referencing the article from N. Holmes.  What I saw as an XOC on this coin struck me as interesting - although Hill's list of countermarks made me question - is this one countermark or 3?

(of course at least 2 other countermarks on this coin - beyond the XOC)

Edited May 29, 2023 by Sulla80

[NewStyleKing]

I think..... that the guy is kneeling  on a cushion with ornaments on it.  To me he looks oriental Persian doing an oriental act of worshipping/pleading to  a great person.  I don't think Egypt is likely.. the cushion is not an Egyptian thing  to my mind.

Edited May 30, 2023 by NewStyleKing

[Ursus]

I bought this one because of its five countermarks, in particular because of the ankh-shape (see Hill 147–149) on the left side of the obverse:

Xerxes I – Artaxerxes II, "Achaemenid Empire" (probably Lydian regional issue), AR siglos, ca. 485–375 BC. Obv: Great King kneeling left, holding transverse spear and bow, numerous banker's marks. Rev: irregular punch. 15mm, 5.43g. Ref: Carradice 1987, type III B.

I was able to further identify a circle (Hill 3 or 4) and an S-shaped punch that I suspect to be the Phoenician letters ayin and nun (Hill 133–135) on the obverse, but the large punchmark on the right side of the obverse remains a mystery to me. The single mark on the reverse might either be a Greek phi or, more likely, a Phoenician qoph.

According to Hill, these marks  "seem to indicate the coasts of Cilicia and Syria and Cyprus as a source" (BMC Arabia, cxxxviii).

Edited June 5, 2023 by Ursus

[GinoLR]

You think the obv. countermarks are ankh ? The ankh hieroglyph, meaning life, is frequent (and not as a countermark!) on 4th c. BC Cypriot coins.

On your coin the countermarks look more like the hieroglyph nefer ( = good, beautiful).

[Ursus]

5 hours ago, GinoLR said:

You think the obv. countermarks are ankh ? The ankh hieroglyph, meaning life, is frequent (and not as a countermark!) on 4th c. BC Cypriot coins.

On your coin the countermarks look more like the hieroglyph nefer ( = good, beautiful).

Hill's discussion in BMC Arabia describes the five punchmarks below as "varieties of ankh." The one on my coin seems to belong to this group:

Knowing preciously little about Egyptian hieroglyphs, I cannot give an informed opinion on whether Hill's interpretation of these marks is sound.