Titus Elephant Denarius

[The_Collector]

Hi everyone,

I recently acquired this new denarius of Titus. It has the famous elephant reverse commemorating the opening of the Colosseum. However, the elephant is very different from those on most of his other coins commemorating the same event. In mine, the elephant is smaller and his trunk curves upwards while on most the trunk curls downwards. The obverse is also different from most Titus denarii as his nose is more hawk shaped. This of course worried me so I did my research and I found four examples in all of the acsearch archives (that are free to access haha) that have sold at previous actions with three being from CNG.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6915224

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3326344

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1325164

All of the previous auctions make no reference to the very noticeable difference between the two types of coins. I have not been able to find any further information on the coin and was hoping someone more knowledgeable could share what they know about the differences. Also please share some of your cool reverses! Thank you for taking a look and sorry for the crummy photos haha.

 

Coin Details:

IMP TITVS CAES VESPASIAN AVG P M

TRP IX IMP XV COS VIII PP

3.202 grams

[Prieure de Sion]

Can you please take pictures of the edge? 

Don't try to go to the coin with your cell phone - your cell phone can't take macro pictures. Zoom in. Place the phone on a surface.

May I also ask where you bought the coin? Auction house? Dealer? EBay? 

Thank you.

[Prieure de Sion]

Maybe @David Atherton can say something about the different types?

As far as I'm concerned. Again, I am not a professional - I have my experts when it comes to forgeries. But nevertheless, I'm also trying to learn myself and to get better and better at recognising forgeries myself. So what I am writing now are only assessments - no certainties! I can only tell you what I personally notice and what would be a reason to investigate further. No more! These are only things that I find "strange" - but they are not proof. They are only reasons to have someone who really knows his stuff take another look.

The problem with the Titus elephant Denarius is the same as with the Caesar elephant Denarius. He is conspicuous, he is popular, a lot of money is paid for him - he is forged by the thousands. It is simply worthwhile. I would therefore only buy a Caesar Elephant Denarius from an expert from a reputable recognised auction house. Never anywhere else.

Ok - I have looked at your Denarius again and I have noticed a few things that I find suspicious (not anymore!).

- Of course, the fact that you found the coin somewhere else in the database does not prove that it is genuine. Because the others can also be forgeries. I find the distinctive hooked nose especially in forgeries of this type on Numiswiki.

- Is it your mobile phone photo? Or is the embossing so blurred / fuzzy? Forgeries are very often "spongy" and "blurred". Somehow the die on your coin is too faint, blurred - the coin is slightly muddy. Especially the reverse. But that could also be due to the photos.

- I don't like the reverse. There are many small details, the left front leg is drawn like a ruler - but especially the line on which the elephant is standing looks too perfect to me.
 

 

 

I am a little sceptical. That's all. But I could also be completely wrong.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Prieure de Sion

[David Atherton]

Your coin looks OK to me style-wise. Although the pics are not ideal, it appears to be struck and not cast.  The weight is within range too. The elephant's trunk isn't a good indication of authenticity, the trunk poses varied and can sometimes be shown 'curving upwards'.

If pressed for an answer - I say ancient and authentic.

Edited December 6, 2022 by David Atherton

[idesofmarch01]

I have one of these coins (see below) and I find myself in agreement with Prieure de Sion that this coin makes me uneasy.  

Specifically, I find that the fabric/texture of the fields, especially on the reverse, don't look like most other examples of this coin that I've seen; there is an overly smooth, somewhat "soapy" appearance to the fields.

Possibly better (sharper) pictures would help.

Also, where did you purchase this coin?  A dealer?  VCoins?  A local store?  EBay?  The reputation of the seller would be helpful in ascertaining its authenticity.

Here's my example for comparison:

[DonnaML]

Here's my example of the type:

While mine is not nearly as outstanding as @idesofmarch01's specimen, I think both can be used for comparison purposes with respect to @The_Collector's example in the original post. Unfortunately, I think the photos in the OP are simply too blurred for me to be able to offer an opinion. It's not the direction of the trunk that concerns me; it's the inability from these photos to be able properly to examine the ear (although the shape looks like it should), the legs (especially to see if they're segmented), and the body, including the rather peculiar depression in the hindquarters. I just can't tell from these photos.

[David Atherton]

Well, I did find an authentic double die match to the OP coin, offered by CNG.

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=288053

[kirispupis]

I can't really comment on the OP's coin, but I can post mine. 🙂 My elephant looks a bit "special" compared to the others.

Titus. AD 79-81
AR Denarius 17.5mm, 3.29 g, 6h
Rome mint. Struck 1 January-30 June AD 80
Laureate head right
Elephant, wearing armor, walking left on exergual line
RIC II.1 115; RSC 303
Ex CNG

[Victor_Clark]

28 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Elephant, wearing armor, walking left on exergual line

 

The elephant isn't wearing armor, that is how the Romans tried to depict the wrinkled skin of the elephant. There are plenty of Roman mosaics that show this technique.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Victor_Clark

[ominus1]

[kirispupis]

12 minutes ago, Victor_Clark said:

 

The elephant isn't wearing armor, that is how the Romans tried to depict the wrinkled skin of the elephant. There are plenty of Roman mosaics that show this technique.

Thanks! I recall this conversation from earlier, but hadn't changed the attribution I received from CNG. I've corrected it to "with skin texture"

FWIW, here's my original attribution from CNG:

Titus. AD 79-81. AR Denarius (17.5mm, 3.29 g, 6h). Rome mint. Struck 1 January-30 June AD 80. Laureate head right / Elephant, wearing armor, walking left on exergual line. RIC II.1 115; RSC 303. Toned, porosity, some shallow scratches. VF.

The elephant on this particular issue represents one of the numerous species displayed in the newly constructed Flavian Amphitheater, better known today as the Colosseum, built by prisoners of the First Jewish War on the site of the Domus Aurea of Nero. Opened to the public during Titus’ rule, in AD 80, and commemorated by Martial in de Spectaculis, the Colosseum was welcomed with great fanfare and games. During the opening ceremonies a great number of animals, including elephants, were both exhibited and slaughtered.

[The_Collector]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your replies and pictures you all have some really beautiful examples of the type. I share a lot of your concerns with some of the lettering and the odd style but as @David Atherton shared I found the double die matches and that eased my fears since there were three from CNG (links in original post). I also took some, hopefully, better pictures for you all. I also took some edge photos for @Prieure de Sion. I hope they are better than my last haha. The fields are a lot smoother and less grainy in hand. They keep turning out odd even though on my phone they look great 😞

What boggles me is that if there are these double dies and this type is genuine why there isn't any information at all about this, in my opinion, odd set of dies. I mean ignoring the reverse the obverse itself is odd for a bust of Titus. Have any of you all been able to find any information on this type?

As always, thank you all for looking and sharing!

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by The_Collector

[Jay GT4]

I had my doubts originally but the new pics are much more convincing!  I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Prieure de Sion]

Ah yes! That new photos are much much much more better! You can think this are two different coins with the pictures.

Now the surface of obverse and reverse complete other - and looks for me like a ancient coin of the time. The edge is perfect. 

So with the new pictures I would not notice anything negative.

[idesofmarch01]

1 hour ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Ah yes! That new photos are much much much more better! You can think this are two different coins with the pictures.

Now the surface of obverse and reverse complete other - and looks for me like a ancient coin of the time. The edge is perfect. 

So with the new pictures I would not notice anything negative.

I agree completely, having seen the later pictures of the coin.  They don't even look like the same coin!

In any event, I have no misgivings or uneasiness about the coin having seen these new pictures.

[David Atherton]

6 hours ago, The_Collector said:

What boggles me is that if there are these double dies and this type is genuine why there isn't any information at all about this, in my opinion, odd set of dies. I mean ignoring the reverse the obverse itself is odd for a bust of Titus. Have any of you all been able to find any information on this type?

The portraits of Titus can vary. Take a look at my Titus gallery to get an idea of the range, you'll see your elephant coin is perfectly acceptable!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1192

Edited December 7, 2022 by David Atherton

[The_Collector]

Thank you everyone for you replies! And thank you @David Atherton for sharing your gallery they are some amazing coins!!