Palaeologus Rhodes Need Assistance.

[Simon]

Does anyone have a catalog reference for this coin?  The weight is 2.3gm and 12.39mm . If is is indeed Rhodes it would be pre 1310. The B's are Palaeologus. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thank You,

Simon

 

[Curtis JJ]

It's not my area but it's interesting. I've seen the Palaeologian bronzes with a B on one side, or two B's on one side facing apart, but never something quite like this.

I know it's not a Cherson Basil, but that's the first thing that came to mind -- those the little cast bronzes from several centuries earlier. Of course, this looks like a struck coin, not cast, and the type wouldn't match (I've seen various reverses, but not another "B").

I'm always curious about Byantine bronzes & small change, so I'll be interested to see what comes up...

Edited September 7, 2022 by Curtis JJ

[Glebe]

There are a number of similar coins featuring Palaeologan B's in Schlumberger's L'Orient Latin which are attributed to Rhodes but nothing exactly the same. 

Schlumberger's types usually include other symbols - stars and crosses and so on - whereas this coin seems oversimplified to me, and so is perhaps a local type (from who knows where)?

Ross G.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Glebe

[seth77]

Is this the same coin discussed on CT some time ago?

[Simon]

55 minutes ago, seth77 said:

Is this the same coin discussed on CT some time ago?

Exact Seth, you mentioned DOC as a reference, I could not find it. I am looking for a copy of the book that Ross mentioned above but no success there yet.  I just want to get it labeled besides Rhodes Palaeologus. 

[Simon]

2 hours ago, Glebe said:

Schlumberger's types usually include other symbols - stars and crosses and so on

I think the first B has remains of dots in the B.

This coin I original acquired in an old collection. It had a a tag Rhodes? @seth77 gave me that info as well on a conversation at CT. I was honestly hoping someone had run into another attributed example. 1 is a fluke, 2 is a type.

 

This is a description of a DIFFERENT coin of the same time period. 

Hammer	Start	Date	Auction House	Auction	Lot No
550 CHF	100 CHF	02.10.2021	Obolos	webauction 20	1466

Rhodes under the Byzantines
CRUSADERS. Lords of Rhodes. Time of Michael VIII Palaeologus -Andronikos II Palaeologus, circa 1250-1309. (Bronze, 17 mm, 1.40 g, 12 h), c. 1259-1309 but probably 1261-1275. Plain cross with B in each quarter (coat of arms of the Palaeologos family). Rev. Plain cross with B in each quarter (coat of arms of the Palaeologos family). Schlumberger pl. VIII, 23. Extremely rare. Very fine.


After the death of the \"usurper\" Gabalas in 1250, Rhodes became de-facto part of the Empire of Nicaea and shortly after the recapture of Constantinople, was again part of the Byzantine Empire. Michael VIII Palaeologus, offered the island to his brother John Palaeologus, and remained under the Byzantine suzerainty until 1309 when the Knights of St. John conquered the island and established their state.

The four Bs in each corner of a plain cross, are the abbreviations of the legend \"Βασιλεύ Βασιλέων Βασιλεῖ Βοήθει\"= King of the Kings (Jesus Christ) please aid the king, and was one of the coat of arms of the Palaeologus family. This coin can only be dated in this period, that Rhodes was affiliated with the Byzantine Empire.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Simon

[Glebe]

You can find Schlumberger on the Hathitrust.org site.

You need the plates, which are at the end of the main text (there is also a supplement). For the Lords of Rhodes see Pl. VIII & IX (p.549ff), and also Pl. XIX (which is part of the supplement, but is in the wrong place on p.571). The relevant text starts at p.216.

As I implied before, I'm not even sure this particular coin can be tied to Rhodes, or for that matter the Aegean region in general.

It seems to be a crude type that could come from just about anywhere under nominal Palaeologan overlordship from the 13th to the 15th century.

Ross G.

[quant.geek]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

Exact Seth, you mentioned DOC as a reference, I could not find it. I am looking for a copy of the book that Ross mentioned above but no success there yet.  I just want to get it labeled besides Rhodes Palaeologus. 

You should be able to download it from https://archive.org/details/numismatiquedelo00schl. As @Glebe mentioned, hathitrust.org is another good site, but the download is limited to only US residents. I usually prefer hathitrust over Google and archive.org due to its superior scanning and its high resolution plates in their books.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by quant.geek

[Simon]

Thank You @Glebe and @quant.geek. I apreciate your assistance. 

Simon

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

@SimonI own schulmberger. If you would like any photos, please let me know