Rand

Poor little Leo II deserves mentioning in the transition from Leo I to Zeno.

Jean Elsen & ses Fils S.A. Auction 98. 13/12/2008. 

Ex. Sotheby’s. An Important Private Collection of Byzantine Coins. 02/11/1998

37 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Found in Britain.

37 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Found Oxfordshire.

It is incredible what coins are found in Britain and how you have assembled so many of them! A great collection!

On 5/22/2023 at 8:33 PM, DonnaML said:

I spent one entire afternoon at Seaby's looking at tray after tray of British gold coins and silver crowns, to the incredible boredom of my traveling companion! 

I thought there was always a purposefully planned shoe shop next to the coin shop 🙂
I tend to finish sooner than my wife.
 

These fascinating posts make me feel like a novice collector. My happy childhood ‘old’ coins collecting lived on knowing other interested boys (always boys). Since moving to a city, visiting a local collector club, and later being shown humble stocks by shop dealers, I felt a parallel world of serious collectors with their secret membership and language. The world I have never belonged. Such a parallel world might be true - a hint is the new Roma Reward Membership, Gold at £50,000 over a year; Premier at £100,000. There must be a relatively small circle of such collectors who know each other and may have their tradition of mutual introductions or recommendations. As for dealers, there is no point to bend over backwards to strangers like me. Thank you, Internet!

A very common one, and I do not really collect them, but could not resist.

Maximinus I. AD 235-238. AR Denarius (21mm, 2.94 g, 12h). Rome mint. 3rd emission, AD 236-237. 

Classical Numismatic Group, Inc. Electronic Auction 306. 10/07/2013

Do not have many graded coins - this seems to have the highest numbers.

Anastasius I (AD 491-492). AV solidus (20mm, 4.42 gm, 6h).   Constantinople, 6th officina.

Heritage Auctions, Inc. Auction 3037. 04/01/2015. From The Law Collection (whatever this means).

Jokes aside, the hobby of collecting is addictive, giving the endorphins of intense happiness for most but putting some of us at serious risk of substantial financial loss.

While there are stories about remortgaging houses as a sign of commitment from 'serious' collectors, this is more likely than not to be a wrong decision. All collectors should assume, from the onset, the likely financial loss at the time of collection disposition. Even if the sale values are above the purchase values years after the purchase may still mean a loss due to inflation. It is tempting to see collecting as an investment hobby. This would require strict purchase discipline when planning and bidding, a slippery path. 

Sadly, I have met a family affected.

Every time I joy a 'good' purchase below the coin's previous sale, it is also a selfish me celebrating someone else's loss. One day I will be in the same shoes (pretty certainly with my niche collecting pattern). 

Happy collecting.

Arguably Lagos has as much relevance to the Kingdom of Benin as London; both are capitals of powers controlling the kingdom's territory and its people. Modern Nigeria would likely only exist with the unification led by Britain.

People of Oba or People of Nigeria had never owed the Bronzes before the repossession. The Benin Royalty commissioned them for their personal use, and, unlike with many monarchies, there was no formal transfer of these items to the people of Benin before the British repossession (not sure about recent agreements). If Benin Royaly is the true owner, they may have the right to keep them private. 

The reaches of Benin Royals, to a large extent, came from the slave trade. They used the slave trade to procure the raw materials. The artists who produced the Bronzes are unknown, and the bronzes do not seem to praise them. The bronzes manufactured over centuries came from the royal palace and were unavailable even to the broader nobility. The manufacturing process may have been a strictly guarded secret. This raises the possibility of artists being slaves, local or from other lands. This adds to the controversy of their return to Benin royalty.

@DonnaML I think this is the same coin, even without the auction house records.  I have observed a few coins with the same minute defects as on casts but with slightly different flan shapes, so this could not all be coincidences. 

Being passionate about the find provenances, especially coins that could be from old dispersed Frech migration period hoards, I tried but could not find photographs of old casts besides the original coins. I will keep your photo as the best evidence I have seen.

I previously posted my coin similar to Ratto’s but with some flan deviations - I would prefer it not to be Ratto’s coins for the sake of putting together a die puzzle (a non-academic fancy). https://www.numisforums.com/topic/3703-interesting-thread-on-reddit-about-roma-numismatics-and-the-apparent-arrest-of-richard-beale/?do=findComment&comment=46490

Congratulation on the nice coins @DonnaML.

The photos of the solidus give insight into to what degree the shape of the cast can deviate from the shape of the coin itself. Without knowing that the coin was from Auktion 116 München Münzhandlung Karl Kreß, it could be hard to be sure this is the same coin. 
The cast is missing a part under the Arcadius hand on the obverse - there is a gap between the hand and the border on the photo on the coin, but there is no such gap on the cast.
In contrast, there is some flattening on the flan border on the top left of the coin's obverse (also seen on the reverse), but the cast did not capture this detail. 
I often agonise in similar situations, and preserving the recorded provenance record is very helpful.

Cultural artefacts are valuable to the global development of humanity, appreciation of historical processes, mistakes made and finding a way to be better together. Those artefacts are part of our shared past in the increasingly cosmopolitan world.

I fear some governments use the ‘cultural treasure’ rhetoric to distract the public from their incompetence and corruption. There is a risk that these arguments may further segregate people into conflicting groups. Except for some high-profile historical objects, most are destined for museum vaults, not displays. As such, will moving them from a vault in a major Western museum to a vault in a national or regional museum greatly help research and the public? 

I do not know how customary it was for the Oba people to visit the royal palace to admire Benin Bronzes in the past. For the sake of diversity of opinions, an interesting BBC article, ‘Why slave descendants want the Benin Bronzes to stay in US’. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-63504438

PS. There were no suitable emojis to show my appreciate of the comment and reasoning by @Hrefn!!!

10 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Sometimes even recent auction history can provide an assurance of reputability that doesn't necessarily attach to a current dealer. As with my Corinth stater, which I purchased from Athena only because it was ex Roma from an auction a couple of years previously, and I was able to confirm from the old auction photos that its appearance hadn't been altered since then. So the provenance wasn't merely an accidental benefit; it was necessary to my purchase.

This is a very good example of how provenance can be helpful. Hopefully, third-party graders keep this approach onboard, but collectors do not need to depend on them.

The 1910 provenance record for the Vespasian aureus, interesting on its own, shows the coin in the same original state as it was over a century ago.

The below is meant to be humour - please forgive me if it reads sarcastic instead. I lost internet connection today seconds before bidding on the desired Roma lot, and did no have a chance for a drink.

Let me, for a moment, pretend to be in the intelligent person category and willing to pay for a pedigree from a particular person. If so,

- I would be discreet about the person's character, irrespective of their fame. I would want to avoid being said to pay an extra unit of currency to own a coin from someone who was not up to scratch with modern moral values.
- I would expect a discount for a coin with a pedigree to a less decent person, as it would damage my experience owning the coin.
- If a pedigree is an asset, I expect evidence of it, which I can pass on selling the coin. I would want a clause of my money back if the pedigree turns up false.

As it stands, the pedigree for me is bright packaging, which may influence my choice despite my best intentions.

Thinking of a day when I may need to sell my collection, it may be prudent to start building a pedigree for it. As nobody would pay a penny for a pedigree from me, I shall perhaps approach Daniel Craig to arrange for temporal ownership of my coins by him, to sell them later as Ex James Bond Collection, previously owned by Daniel Craig (of course, I wait for the end of the Roma saga first, and I keep fingers crossed for RB).

This is a very interesting thread; different people find different ways to enjoy their hobby.

Provenance (find spots) is part of coin history as money. Its value tends to be promoted by academics.

Pedigree is part of coin history as collectables. Its value tends to be promoted by the sale industry.

Pedigree is increasingly advertised on account of establishment of goods titles, as pointed out by @DLTcoins. I feel this is a slippery trend for the hobby. 

• It implies that being from a reputable dealer is no longer grounds for being reasonably satisfied that the coin is legitimate.
• It encourages the collector to invest time and money in provenance searches, whether they are interested in pedigrees or not (this becomes a new industry).
• Most legitimate coins, especially lower-value coins, would not have a robust photographic pedigree trail, stressing out honest collectors.
• Essentially all pre-50th (and many much later) 'coin photographs' are photographs of their casts, not coins. I often find it difficult to be certain whether an old photograph is of the same coin (or its cast to be precise).
• Do non-photographic provenances from the 'ex-XYZ collection' in the sale catalogue add any value as evidence without documentation of the previous ownership? I doubt.
• Pedigree evidenced by old sale tickets may also be disputed. Often there would be many coins that would match the ticket, only mentioning a general type/catalogue number (which can be misattributed), with no photograph, accurate factual description of the individual coin attributes or invoices.

11 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Back to provenance: personally I think it's pretty cool, in a nerdy kinda way, that the following coin was previously owned by Nobel Prize winning physicist Murray Gell-Mann!

It is funny. The only time I felt attached to a provenance was for coins previously owned by Murray Gell-Mann, including the one from my avatar picture. He was my childhood hero when I was dreaming of becoming a nuclear physicist (which did not happen). Still, I only bought his coins that matched my collecting interests. I do not think I overpaid for the pedigree, and generally forgotten about their pedigree till now.

1 hour ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

The ashmolean has already done this 

Thank you for pointing this out, and I did not mean to offend the Ashmolean by not considering it a major Byzantine numismatic collection (they list 1974 coins under Byzantine). They certainly have a very nice collection.

Another sizeable Byzantine coin collection that was digitised over 10 years ago is the Barber Institute collection, University of Birmingham. I still keep the photos they kindly gave me in 2012 after visiting their study room. Still, it would not compare it to collections as Dumbarton Oaks, British Museum, ANS, or Hermitage.

Thank you for sharing. Princeton University's Byzantine Coin Collection can become the first fully digitised and available online major Byzantine numismatic collection, which would be most welcome.

The article makes a bold statement that it is the World's Largest. Possibly, but two Byzantine collections, which I am desperate but hopeless accessing, may have more than 20,000:

• Numismatic Museum of Athens
• Istanbul Archaeological Museum

If someone knows how to access the collections, that would be greatly appreciated (I did try contacting them).

St Peterburg's Hermitage was expected to be a contender as well. However, their recently presented online collection was somewhat disappointing in an area that interests me most. Some coins of particular interest, cited in Tolstoi's 1912 book, did not appear - either not put online for some reason or no longer there after the turbulent Russian history of the XXth century.

On 4/22/2023 at 4:42 PM, John Conduitt said:

There's a lot I don't understand about the process.

I am very interested in all your questions. Sadly, I do not have many answers, and the answers would undoubtedly vary.

For the example of the Anastasian series pictured higher in the thread (11/04/491 - 01/09/492; 1 year 4 months 20 days):

• There are at least two die-cutters for obverses (based on styles). One was likely (partially) illiterate or dyslexic with 'typos' in legends. I cannot see any obvious other explanations for TERP and RERP solidi and a recut tremissis die.
• There are two distinct reverse styles: the old 'spiked wing' style transitioned from Zeno (discontinued soon during Anastasian reign) and a newer 'rounded-wing' style. I know only 6 old style dies, as opposed to 23 new style dies. At least one obverse die cutter for Zeno continued a similar style for Anastasius, so some old style reverses were also likely produced under Anastasius. It is thus unlikely there was a large stock of dies in Constantinople then. For such a busy mint, the die production probably parallelled their use.
• There are many control marks on obverses. It is likely that dies for gold coins were highly controlled (e.g., one current reverse per 'officina'). Die progression charts suggest die sharing between 'officinae' rather than random die use. Still, there are too many gaps, which are not helped by restricted access to Greek and Turkish museum collections (at least I have failed so far).
• The obvious disproportion of the outputs challenges the existence of ten workshops based on ten officina letters. Officina 'I' dominates with 26 projected dies, which contrasts to only 42 projected dies for all other officinae together plus coins with no officina, marriage issues, all semisses and all tremisses. This is an interesting topic for discussion.

Kölner Münzkabinett Tyll Kroha Nachfolger. Auction 117. 28/10/2022

Jesús Vico, S.A. Auction 146. 27/10/2016

Apologies if I have missed a thread on interests in die studies or die links. Sorting dies shows the progression of coin minting, mint organisation and helps coin dating. I find it fascinating when coins from the same dies are found in different parts of the world, indicating their circulation and, in historical context, the spread of trade or even migration routes.

The below reverse-linked trio from the early Anastasian series links the TERP variety and two PERP helmet varieties (trefoil and no jewel), showing that a workshop produced them around the same time (if the ’S’, means an officina).  

For the TERP variety:

• I am aware of 7 coins, all from a single obverse die (I only have the one below). This makes it statistically likely to be a single-die variety.
• This obverse was used with reverse dies with four different officina letters (or no letter). This means dies were shared between the presumed workshops (which is well-known).

It would be interesting to know the experiences of others on coins comings from the same or linked dies.

Anastasius

Solidus Numismatik. Auction 26. 17/02/2018

I believe once I was bidding against myself during earlier Roma times.

I put a generous prebid. Eventually, I was able to join live bidding and could not know if it was my bid winning…
I really wanted the coin… 
I bid live… 
I won. 

8 hours ago, Roman Collector said:

Man, I practically busted my budget at Roma yesterday and I have bids in at three auctions this weekend. 😮 Anyone else binge-bidding?

Being a devoted collector is not far from obsession or even a kind of addiction. It can be extremely fulfilling but can also make people push their limits. I would imagine binging is not uncommon. 

I hope you recover well and are fit again by the time of the NAC tournament in May.

It is both a great historical artefact and an art masterpiece.

Next most expensive Roman coin?

26 minutes ago, Tejas said:

This is a wonderful coin. However, unless there is find spot evidence, which links it to regions settled by the Langobards in the first half of the 5th century, I find it impossible to attribute this and similar coins to a specific ethnic groups or polities outside the boundaries of the Roman Empire. 

Sirmium and Gepids is a more traditional attribution for the coins, and not unlikely but ...
We know of a find in Ukraine (http://barbarous-imitations.narod.ru, later sold by Leu) and none from the Gepiden area, to my knowledge (including the published museum collections, will be glad to learn otherwise).
The style continues into later reigns and appears to evolve gradually in the Lombardic style. It is possible, of course, that Lombards used the style after destroying the Gepiden Kingdom.

23 minutes ago, Tejas said:

A lot of ink has been spilled on the question on the origin of the Goths in the last 60 years or so and we don't need to go through the arguments again. I think what is clear is that the Goths in Italy, Gaul and Spain had no links with Scandinavia and had no knowledge of such links in the past.

Thank you! Really insightful, and there are little doubts that Goths were not one tribal group. 

Regarding no link with Scandinavia, what are your thoughts about why Visigothic and Ostrogothic coins of Anastasian reign are so numerous in finds in Scandinavia? Who were those people linking Scandinavia with Gothic Italy, Gaul and Spain? I do not imply reverse migration!

10 hours ago, Hrefn said:

What is the mint mark in the reverse field, or is it a ruler’s initials?

I have a similar coin without the initials.  @Tejas, whose opinion I respect greatly, speculated it might be Burgundian.  

 

The monogram in the left field of Poncet's solidus is widely believed to be of Gundobad. More intriguing could be the monogram at the end of the reverse legend, which is consistent across the type. It could be indicative of the mint, likely Vienne or Lyon. I am inclined to think of Vienna due to its cruder style - possibly produced after Gudobad captured and killed his treacherous brother Godegisel in Vienne in 501 and had to pay his bill to Visigoths who supported him on this occasion. Gudobad was now the sole ruler of Burgundy.

Your Anastasius solidus (from Dorotheum) keeps confusing me with a slightly odd style compared to the common Rome type and typos in both obverse and reverse legends. It looks like an 'imitation of an imitation. I can be wrong, of course, but I cannot see why Burgudinans would want to do this, and Burgundian styles are quite distinct. I would rather speculate about Theodoric's allies, Allemani or other tribes east to the Alps or Balkans.