JeandAcre

Many thanks, @Spaniard, on all counts, but especially for clearing up the versions of Jaume's name!!! I feel very fortunate to have found a copy of the operant volume of Crusafont. For coins of the region, I like it only more than the volume of MEC.

@Cordoba, those are two magnificent dinars. And for illiteracy in Arabic, I'll bet I have you beat! I mainly collect Islamic coins for the indispensible context they provide to European medieval ones. But even as their more immediate history is richly compelling in its own right, the more I find out about it, so are the esthetic qualities of the legends, independently of my inability to read them. ...Even in this medium, I find it hard to use the phrase, 'Arabic lettering;' I always have to stop myself from saying, 'Arabic calligraphy.'

It really needs repeating, ...again; on a technical level, everything about this platform is a vast relief, compared to the old one. Thanks again, @Restitutor, for your time and evident expertise in picking the right one. ...But one thing I wish I was literate enough to figure out is how to change the default mode to a larger font. For some of us, especially in an inherently recreational context, this really helps. From home, I'm looking at the screen over more than two feet of desk. And so far, every time I upload anything, the font changes back to the, from here, frankly squinty 12-point font. Would anyone be kind enough to help out with this? I would enjoy the net result enough to also enjoy the attendant embarrassment. With thanks for anyone's kind attention. (...And I'm thinking that, just maybe, this belongs in the general discussion.)

@Spaniard, that's a magnificent example of James II. And @seth77, Many thanks for a Fantastic website, which I'd never happened across ...unless, Just Maybe, it represents a major overhaul of one going back a decade or so, that disappeared. (For books in print, I could recommend vol. 6 (The Iberian Peninsula) of Medieval European Coinage (2013; 1st paper printing, 2017). It's the only volume of the series that I could find cheaply enough to buy. With luck, that's still the case. To all appearances, it's very complete for the issues of the Christian kings, although for al-Andalus, not so much. --Granted, it cites Crusafont --a coauthor, along with Philip Grierson-- as you did.) ...The same decade ago, when ebay in several countries was still a rich field, I put together a type set of Jaime I, by mint. These are the two I can readily find pics of; of Aragon (granted, worse than @Ursus' example) and Barcelona. My favorite is actually the one of Valencia, but the pics of that one, if there are any, are eluding capture. Then, among what's readily findable picturewise, there's this one of his father, Alfons I. (1162-1196.) These are notorious for the 'ghosting' of the reverse cross (anticipating Edward I's 'new coinage' pennies by roughly a century), but this one is less than stellar even for the type. (Crusafont 296; MEC 82-5.) Here are a couple of earlier examples, from Ramon Berenguer III (1096-1131) and IV (1131-1162), as Counts of Barcelona. (MEC vol. 6: 57 and 58 -60, respectively; Crusafont 31, 33.) The only appreciable difference is that in Ramon III's issue, the 'BARCINO' legend faces outward, as in some Roman issues, especially Flavian ones. Apart from that, the legend, around what's ostensibly a fleur de lis, begins at 12 o'clock in Ramon III's case, and 6 o'clock in his son's. ...Yes, these folks are lineal ancestors of the royal dynasty that includes the Jameses. An orthographic note: I get confused about the Iberian renderings, 'Jaime' and 'Jaume.' Is it as easy as one version being Spanish, and the other Catalan?

Fantastic coin and post, @seth77. As late as I joined CT, I'm sure this is one I, for one, never saw there. Please, Pile 'em on!

Welcome, @PlanoSteve! Terrific to have you here. Betting several of us have invited folks from the other forum, but I for one still worry about who I missed.

(If anyone was actually anticipating some medieval artifacts, sorry for the delay of this post. –Issues with Google Docs, not this platform. As in, life is what happens when you were attempting to maintain a train of thought. --John Lennon, paraphrased.) Despite the profusion of French feudal issues, and similar series in Lotharingia /greater Lorraine, and Spain (<--Audrey Hepburn and Rex Harrison notwithstanding), feudal coins from Norman and Angevin England are decidedly rare, and correspondingly stratospheric. Enter heraldic harness pendants and studs. The commonest of these are c. mid-13th into the third quarter of the 14th century, in the shape of triangular shields of the period. (The later reference cited here puts the ‘peak period’ at ‘around 1280 to 1350.’) They’re decorated with the coat of arms of whichever aristocratic or knightly family they were made for. The medium is ‘latten,’ a medieval (and famously Shakespearean) bronze alloy, with enamel and gilt used for the ‘tinctures’ of the coat of arms. Most of the ones on the market are recent detector finds, in less than pristine condition. But sometimes they have both operant tinctures, allowing the identification of a specific family and, in an absolute best case, an individual. In effect, over this relatively brief interval, you’re looking at the primary available Anglo-Norman equivalent of feudal coins. Down to their being variously ‘anonymous’ (in this case, with only the arms of the family; inviting no more than guesswork about the individual, based on the triangulation of findspot, when known, and apparent chronology) and sometimes, only better, in the issuer’s own name (in rare instances when a coat of arms can unambiguously be identified with a specific individual). This is an illustration of what they looked like in real time, from the Trinity Apocalypse, c. mid-13th century. Picture from Claire Barnes, on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ClaireFromClare/status/1432696668667977732/photo/2 …Funly demonstrating a very early phase of partial ‘plate armor’ in the process. Here’s a link to the Trinity College website, with lots more detail on the ms.: https://mss-cat.trin.cam.ac.uk/manuscripts/uv/view.php?n=R.16.2&n=R.16.2#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=48&xywh=186%2C1374%2C3549%2C1832 Here are a couple of examples, with enough of both tinctures to establish the precise coat of arms. Or a lion rampant azure (blue). (In heraldry, the ‘field,’ or background, always precedes the ‘chief,’ or motif. …Sorry for the sheer pedantry.) This is the coat of the Percys, lords of Alnwick and eventual earls of Northumberland. In 1309, the Percy family bought Alnwick Castle from the bishop of Durham, who had fallen into it after the extinction of the original, lay lords. In spite of vast amounts of internal rebuilding during the 18th and 19th centuries, a surprising amount of the external stonework, from the 12th to the 14th centuries, remains more or less intact. Here’s a view of the ‘barbican,’ actually the gateway to the keep, usually attributed to Henry (d. 1352), grandfather of the first Percy earl of Northumberland. …This is still the best picture I can find online. If you squint, you can see the shields, just below the battlements, with the coats of arms of numerous related families as of the mid-14th century. …This is why some of us still need stuff that’s in the print medium. …Now, we get somewhere. This is the latest one I bought; another UK detector find. Gules (red), a saltire (“X”) and chief (band across the top) or. From my principal reference for Anglo-Norman heraldry (that is, of the predominantly Anglo-Norman aristocracy of the Angevin period), along with an ancillary one, this corresponds to exactly one person. This is Richard de Brus (Bruce), an uncle of Robert I, King of Scotland. Richard predeceased his own father, leaving no heirs. https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#RobertBrusdied1295 …And his coat of arms never appeared in a later generation. It shows up in several English rolls of arms of the later 13th century, including one a few years after his demise, but always in his own name. It was sold unattributed by a dealer on UK ebay who sells lots of detector finds. Here I think I’ve struck gold. Sad as the story is (...and, really, the pendant isn’t much prettier in hand than the picture shows), there’s exactly one person to associate with this blazon. References. Ashley, Steven. Medieval Armorial Horse Furniture in Norfolk. East Anglian Archaeology Report No. 101, 2002. Baker, John. ‘The Earliest Armorial Harness Pendants.’ The Coat of Arms 3rd ser. 11 (2015), no. 229, pp. 1-24. Humpherey-Smith, Cecil. Anglo-Norman Armory Two: An Ordinary of Thirteenth-Century Armorials. Canterbury: The Institute of Heraldic and Genealogical Studies, 1984.

Thanks, @NewStyleKing, for your observations. ...Except, they inexorably invite the question, what was Herodotus' agenda? ...Or Volney's? ...Or, for that matter, that of later 19th- and 20th-century, Eurocentric archaeologists? On this level, revisionism is kind of where you find it. @Ancient Coin Hunter's post admirably broadens the scope of this topic, regarding when Egyptians looked like this or that, and what specific demographics were involved in any given historical context. For one related example, the Ptolemaic dynasty notoriously intermarried with no one who wasn't Greek. (Leading to levels of inbreeding that evoke the later Habsburgs in Germany and Spain ...whether or not with comparably catastrophic consequences.) Much of the initial Roman population was similarly inclined; granted, not at the perilous level of a single dynasty. And similarly ethnically cohesive populations, whether mercenaries or slaves, were present in Egypt back to Pharaonic times. It took a millennium and a half of foreign domination for the aggregate population to genetically 'stew' to the point where you see them today. Meanwhile, Herodotus is reporting on what he saw as of the 5th century BCE, during the earliest, Persian phase of foreign rule. To reiterate, we're talking about a millennium and a half of history. Given which, returning to modern Copts, I can cite a photograph on p. 105 of Christian Cannuyer's Coptic Egypt: The Christians of the Nile (New York: Abrams, 2001), showing a Coptic congregation in worship --all standing, old and young, as in Eastern Orthodox practice (p. 105). From the hair and facial morphology, there's a spectrum of people of varyingly Arab, and partly Black appearance. Not unlike modern Palestinians. ...In effect, what's crudely referred to as 'miscegenation' has been the default mode for centuries, in numerous parts of the world. For instance, compare this (a group of kids in Cairo --not even likely to be Copts ...unless some of them were) https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/levine/bundles/225160 To this (another picture of Jelly Roll Morton, vis. my OP about old coins and old tunes): https://www.nonesuch.com/artists/jelly-roll-morton

Who said anything, Ever, about laziness being gender specific? Getting No traction with that, At All.

Brilliant OP and thread, @Numisnewbie, with an opening collective salvo to match! @jdmKY, that would be a benignly Insane Osiris even if was Saite. The fact that it's from a key interval just before that just makes it that much more staggering. The condition is incredible. I have to breathe for a minute. @Alegandron, your scarabs are incredible too; the range, chronologically and thematically, is amazing. And thanks for turning me on to The Time Machine on VCoins, where I got my one ushabti, from the same period as @jdmKY's Osiris. ...And @DANTE, Seriously, the website you linked to is awesome, too. I like how the dealers who know what they're talking about tend to have the sanest prices. I'll need to get a little more organized to post any of my stuff, but I was thinking we need some medieval up in this house. Stay tuned....

Where Egypt is concerned, it's really necessary to think in terms of nuance and, well pluralism, regarding ethnic origins. Since the mid-first millennium BCE, Egypt has seen multiple waves not only of invasion, but settlement; Persians, Greeks, Romans /Byzantines, more Persians, Arabs, and Ottoman Turks. And from photographs I've seen, Copts are on a comparable spectrum, some of them with a fairly unmistably Black component. Think of 'Creoles' in greater New Orleans. I like to think of Cairo as the equivalent ...except that the river flows in the opposite direction.

@quant.geek, that's the stuff!!! I'm needing it how various colonial contexts perpetuated hammered coinage into the 18th century, never mind this late.

@UkrainiiVityaz, I've never seen an example that early, in that stellar a condition. ...And the heraldry on the reverse is magnificent; I could only wish that someone could 'deconstruct' it, quartering by quartering. --It won't be me!

...And she Doesn't have the same hair style! Honestly, I'm not getting much traction with the notion, even (or especially) from academics, that where ancient ethnic origin is concerned, the issue of Georgian vs. Egyptian (...or Greek) has to be a zero-sum game. ...As you will know, Even in this great land of ours, the real danger to national security isn't immigration; it's inbreeding. Meanwhile, Many thanks, especially for the Wiki article. You might notice that when it came to assigning mythological labels, ...well, either to the woman or the bull, I kind of wasn't going there. --But, Please, let's stay with bulls for a minute. In boh Greek and Egyptian mythology, they're conspicuously thick on the ground. Guessing the significance of that motif would be like having your turn to hit a pinata.

Anyone fluent in Herodotus, even in translation (disclaimer: I’m not), is likely to know where this is going. First, though, the coins. Colchis. Half siglos / hemidrachm, c. 425-325 BCE. Obv: Female profile facing right. Rev: Bull’s head facing right. Hind 7; HGC 7, 215 Map of Colchis during Classical times. From the hellenicaworld website: www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Geo/en/Colchis.html The account of the origin of the Colchians by Herodotus (c. 484 – 425 BCE) begins with the following observations. (I’ll spare all of us his extended digression about the dissemination of circumcision among various Nilotic and Semitic populations. Not least because one of the latter is conspicuous by its absence.) “For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and this that I say I myself noted before I heard it from others. When I began to think on this matter, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; the Egyptians said that they held the Colchians to be part of Sesostris’ army. [Corresponding to the improbably early reign of Senusret III; Middle Kingdom, c. 1836-1818 BCE. Cf. Wilkinson, esp. xv (timeline).] I myself guessed it to be so, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired….” (Herodotus, vol.I, Book II, 104; pp. 391, 393.) Later, Herodotus notes that the Colchians fought with Xerxes I in his invasion of Greece, c. 480-79 BCE (vol. III, Book VII, 79; p. 389). In the latter context, it’s worth noting that his own hometown of Helicarnassus, in Anatolia, was under Persian rule. Before getting to the Colchians themselves, initial attention is called for, regarding Herodotus’ assessment of the early post-Pharaonic Egyptians. In the latter context, this passage has been quoted by authors as diverse as Volney, The Ruins of Empires (see esp. 15-17 …trans. 1802; a book the ‘monster’ reads in Mary Shelley, Frankenstein), and Diop’s pioneering work of ‘Afrocentric’ history, The African Origin of Civilization. But nearly a century prior to Volney and Shelley, John Woodward, a pioneering English antiquarian (contemporary to the likes of Swift, Addison, Steele and Pope), had implicitly accepted Herodotus’ observation, and anticipated Volney’s ensuing thesis, purely on the basis of his “‘conviction that all the events of the Pentateuch [...] had been there truly described.’” (Levine, 76.) The book of Genesis unambiguously identifies the Egyptians as descendants of Ham. Having equally internalized the high tide of British colonialism, genocide and slavery, and the early phases of modern racism, Woodward’s sole option was to denigrate the cultural achievements of the Pharaonic Egyptians. Noting, for instance, that “the pyramids [....n]ext to classical architecture, [...] were barbarous, ‘without any consideration of adornment or beauty.’” (78; cf. 76-79, passim.) …The same agenda has continued, seamlessly, to our own day; only the tactics have changed. ...Meanwhile, it's worth noting that Herodotus himself, in light of his pioneering status as a prototypical historian, journalist, and anthropologist, found numerous critics, from his own time well into later phases of the Classical era. Given which, thanks to the recurring, large-scale presence of Greek mercenaries in Egypt, from the the 7th to the 5th centuries BCE, we can be confident that his observations regarding the Egyptians could have been summarily discounted by his Greek contemporaries. (Cf. Wilkinson, 411-2, 428-9.) That, for one, simply never happened. In this context, his veracity has been dramatically demonstrated by a recent archaeological discovery (2019 –spelling used in deference to the source). https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwreck-herodotus-archaeologists-thonis-heraclion …Segueing from Egyptians to Colchians, the agenda mentioned above continues its inexorable march. This numismatic article on the coins of Colchis –despite an introduction referring to its history from the 8th c. BCE– simply has no mention of Herodotus. …Shifting tactics: can you say, ‘passive aggressive?’ https://www.persee.fr/doc/dha_0755-7256_1993_num_19_1_2084#dha_0755-7256_1993_num_19_1_T1_0236_0000 In the same vein, the Wiki article on Colchis, after quoting Herodotus, says that “[t]hese claims have been widely rejected by modern historians. It is in doubt if Herodotus had ever been to Colchis or Egypt.” …Citing a net total of two references, from 1992 and 2001, respectively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFehling199413Marincola200134-58 Having addressed the issue of Herodotus’ veracity, I could continue with some circumstantial evidence for a significant Egyptian ethnic component of the Colchians, this time readily adducible from the coins themselves. First, the eye shape of the female profile. Right, right, even the Athenian tetradrachms of the earlier 5th century have something vaguely similar. But in these examples, the relative size, and only more pronounced frontal disposition, evoke the much later survival of an Egyptian esthetic in Aksumite coins, as noted in this passage of Munro-Hay’s introduction: “[From the later 3rd century CE], the royal bust is shown in profile facing right. The eye and shoulders are not seen in profile, but semi-frontally [...]. The Aksumites thus adopted the ancient Egyptian convention [evident in reliefs as well as murals] of showing profile heads while the eyes and shoulders were always rendered full face, very different from the style adopted on South Arabian or Roman coins [both of which drew more directly from Classical precedent]. (35-6.) Ezanas, AR, pre-Christian; Munro-Hay 39. Meanwhile, the coiffure evokes this, for one. After which, I’m outta here. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/685672 Works cited, other than via links …or too fleetingly to be worth a compete citation (Shelly, Frankenstein.) Diop, Cheikh. The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality. Trans. Mercer Cook. (My copy, a first US printing from 1974, is currently on loan to an esteemed colleague at work, precluding full bibliographic data.) Herodotus [sic]. With an English Translation by A. D. Godley. Vol. I: Books I and II. 1920. Cambridge, Mass. and London: Harvard UP /Heinemann, 1966. Four volumes. (Right, a parallel translation; the kind of thing I could only get any traction with for Latin, Old English, or French.) Levine, Joseph M. Dr. Woodward’s Shield: History, Science, and Satire in Augustan England. Cornell U P, 1991. Munro-Hay, Stuart and Juel-Jensen, Bent. Aksumite Coinage. London: Spink, 1995. Volney, C. F. The Ruins of Empires. “Published from the Peter Eckler edition [/translation] 1890.” Baltimore: Black Classsic Press (“A Young Press With Some Very Old Ideas”), 1991. Wilkinson, Toby. The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt. 1st U. S. ed. (London: Bloomsbury /) New York: Random House (both) 2010.

@Severus Alexander, may I second your motion? Everything about this platform is a pure relief from the other one. I love how you can cut and paste stuff directly onto a post, and there's zero limit on graphics. It's just brilliant. Thanks, @Restitutor, for putting this much thought into the platform itself.

Lately, I've fallen into a handful of fractional dinars, from a nominally Fatimid ruler in Sicily, a couple of Andalusian taifas, and two imitative ones, from 10th-century Calabria and Spain (probably Christian), respectively. But the real bling happened with this quasi-tremissis of Kaleb, the Aksumite emperor who briefely conquered part of western Yemen, c. 525, in collusion with Justin I. For issues in his name, gold is effectively more common than silver or copper. It's fun for still having somewhat blundered Greek legends, but also a Ge'ez monogram of his name at the top of the obverse. Later in the 6th century, Aksumite legends made a full transition from Greek to Ge'ez. (Munro-Hay Type 95.)

Yikes. I had no idea that Mehmet was like that on a personal level. Thanks for the, ahem, enlightenment.

...Well, okay, maybe that was just a little tone-deaf, regarding the history, and where various people are with it, on subjective levels. But I've had next-door neighbors, (Sunni) Muslims from Chicago, who, I can promise you, were scarier for being from Chicago than for being Muslim. ...And they weren't, really, on either count. When I was on the way to work, and saw the guy in the hallway, praying on his prayer rug, all I had to do was to go down one flight of stairs, and I was already back on the way to catching the bus. ...Mehmet presided over some seriously evil sh-t. Just as the Franks had done, a neat quarter-millennium earlier. At least Mehmet, in quintessential Arabic [language] tradition, wrote some pretty good poetry about it. ...And, Please insert expetive (or multiples thereof) of choice, now I can't find a translation of the operative poem, even from Gibbon, who I think included some early version. ...Another reason to hang on to your copy of (expletive, expletive, etc.) Gibbon. ...If anyone could help out with that, especially from a better source, for the present purpose, that would not fail to elicit appreciation and gratitude.

Here's one, bought only last year, a standard-brand anonymous follis of Basil II and Constantine VIII. Except, Thank you, I really need it for the nearly complete obverse legend, and the least worn portrait of Christ, that I've ever owned, for the entire subseries of these. @TheTrachyEnjoyer, i remember you (...Unless it was Only a Poor Old Man) talking about how the wear on these can be attributed to their function, in people's pockets (or the equivalent), as miniature ikons. Whichever of you said that, I got lots of traction with it. ...From an earlier Western medieval place, where these often otherwise execrable deniers function as miniature historical documents.

Hey @DonnaML, Huge thanks. Do you think I should have pasted it in a bigger font? ...I invested in the biggest screen, for my desktop, that I'd ever seen before. Except, now, it's propped up on the wall, at at the far end of a real desk (...what's left of it; made by my dad most of a half century ago). ...Honestly, if it turned out that other people have issues with squinting at screens, in type that God only ever intended for books, it would Not be about schadenfreude, but somehow, I'd still be glad it wasn't just me.

Oh, No, Your post was what elicited this, in my answer to @Severus Alexander, just now: "...And your post here elicited the Like, Thanks, and HaHa imogees (how do you spell that? Remind me) in succession. Wish I could do all three." Apologies to both of you.

...And Good Luck with finding, for one, Louis IV. There's an issue from Langres ...but the best you're likely to find is an early immobilization. The ones that are unambiguously of the reign were stratospheric ...even before everything and is backward cousin became stratospheric.

@Severus Alexander, Thank you for your sage advice. Never would've thought of that on my own watch. ...And your post here elicited the Like, Thanks, and HaHa imogees (how do you spell that? Remind me) in succession. Wish I could do all three.

Congrats on a Terrific OP, @seth77. Interesting to hear about the shift in your interests. I entirely agree about the shrinking options for finding new feudal. I'm still looking, though ...granted, a little forlornly. Meanwhile, even from here, the variety of later Roman across mints, even where 'official' issues are concerned, is very engaging. Given my otherwise total ignorance, it's always fun when new synapses light up.