KenDorney

I want to thank all who participated in the attribution of this very odd coin.  I have been so busy of late I just dont participate as much as I would like.  Anyway, as RPC only has 4 of these recorded I have submitted my example to the catalog.

I picked this up at one of the lower tier auctions recently (you know, the ones with no description, just a photo).  I thought I had recognized it but when I went to attribute it I cant seem to find anything similar.  I just dont know.  Looks a bit like Hadrian, but could be any of the bearded emperors.  I just cant read the reverse letters at all, so I dont know what city to look under.  It was sold as 'Vespasian, Aeolis Aigai, 24mm, 6.81 grams'.  The reverse seems to show Marsyas with wineskin over shoulder holding his penis and urinating.  Or maybe I am seeing things.  Often we look too hard at something that others will instantly recognize, even common coins.

Any suggestions?

I only have a few, but here is a neat rare one (and one I desperately need to re-photograph):

Reign of Antoninus Pius to Marcus Aurelius, 138 – 180 AD
Æ Quadrans, Pannonian Mint, 16mm, 2.76 grams
Obverse:  Radiate head of Sol right.
Reverse:  METAL PANNONI CIS in three lines.

References:
BMC 1860 (Hadrian)  //  Woytek 111-2
 

I think this community is still somewhat small, so many posts just dont turn into a thread.

Nero, 54 – 68 AD
Æ Sestertius, Rome Mint, 35mm, 14.83 grams
Obverse:  NERO CLAVD CAESAR AVG GERM TR P IMP P P, Laureate head of Nero right.
Reverse:  S C, Triumphal arch surmounted by statue of Nero in quadriga accompanied by Pax and Victory, two soldiers or torch bearers flanking quadriga, statue of Mars in side niche of each arch.

References:
RIC 143(?)

Cost:
$20

Provenance:
Georgi Hristov, Ireland, via Ebay, November 9th 2016.
 

Back in the old days we would have to advertise in publications (magazines, show programs, etc) to get new customers.  Now with the internet advertising is a completely different beast.  And...this has certainly worked as many people are talking about it and I am sure they picked up many bids with this method.  It's not my thing and I wouldnt do it in my sales, but I dont begrudge them trying something new.

Branch out with your collecting interests.  That will free up other possibilities for collecting.  Last couple years I have not collected very many ancients but a few months ago I started collecting large base metal world coins (18th Century and earlier).  Its a whole new world to me and it a bit like when I first started with ancients.  Its all new, exciting, and I have no idea what will be around the corner to collect.  

Seems all the good discussions happen when I am away!  Some thoughts to address things that have been asked so far:

Who is Curtis?  Some say it doesnt matter.  in essence I suppose I agree.  But the question seems to be how is a coin from Curtis worth more than elsewhere?  His insane knowledge of ancient coins.  His attention to detail in research.  Of course one can be guaranteed that if he says it is rare or unique, it is.

Why high prices?  Many reasons, many of which would not be appreciated by some.  The Berk family has typically focused on very high grade coins.  In such cases one can always ask a high price as such coins are often scarce to rare, even if the type is common.  Back in the old days when Tom Cederlind was mentoring me in the business he pointed this out.  Sure, one can get a common type in average grade for say $100, but in some circumstances the same coin in EF or mint state is incredibly rare.

Why is he and others selling out now?  Again many factors but I'm guessing any collectors age and the overall market will drive this.  If I was smart I'd sell my collection now, and consign to Leu.  They get crazy prices, and there are a few billionaires in the hobby at the moment (and many other lesser wealthy collectors).  This is driving the prices way up.  BUT, while I do consider myself to be reasonably smart I wont be selling anytime soon.  Maybe another 10 years.  I want to enjoy them a bit longer!

And of course, a lot of talk here about value, price, rarity, etc.  Every collector tends to see coins just a bit different than others, in many cases completely differently.  This is probably the primary reason why a coin may sell in one spot for say $25, but elsewhere for $500.  And of course it does the other way around as well.  I've seen coins sell very high at auction and a year later sell for half or less.

This is not something I would participate in, but obviously its got at least two people willing to try it out so far.  My wild guess is that it will be a Greek tetradrachm of some sort.  But, value is an entirely relative concept.  The winner may not have any interest in what they get and not see any value to it.  Anyway, its an interesting side note to the hobby and business, and one I am guessing will not be repeated (at least not by anyone else).

This scenario is common with Fedex and DHL.  Their bills are not sent as 'customs' but as fees for processing the 'paperwork'.  These packages are not handled or inspected in any way, its all computerized.  One time Fedex was asking for documents, age, metal content, origin, etc.  The usual things needed to import properly.  I told them all those documents were in a plastic pouch attached to the outside of the package and that they already have the information in hand.  They released it but clearly the pouch was not opened, so its just an automated process.  And it is often random as to when it will happen.  Its just another fee you have to consider when bidding in European auctions.

Here is one that really fooled me.  If it had not been spotted by someone else I would not have known.  Its re-struck on a genuine coin.  And if interested, see a study of this type here:  

https://numismaticfakes.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/akragas-fake-recently-listed-on-auction-griechische-munzen/

No great surprises for me, as I knew most of what they reported.  Though its interesting to see the percentage so high.

Well, I've kinda given up.  Made a bunch of bids and nothing.  My focus is Roman bronzes, so there were many on my list today but none of which I won.  I even tried sniping at under 10 seconds, doubling the current bid and did not win!  Seems impossible to get anything from Leu these days.  I think I will not waste any more time and just leave proxy bids.  

Interesting topic.  I might have missed some things in the responses so I apologize in advance.  As to the first question:  Honestly I do not know if there is value to one service over the other.  I do believe that all of these compilation sites generally use the same public data, though there are agreements in place to provide exclusive sales results.  This is why on some services you will see the estimate but no sales result and on others you see the hammer price.  

Honestly it really depends on what you are doing with the information.  If you are simply using sites for attribution there is no value for the paid subscription.  But if you are using the sites for sales data for future bidding they have value.  What that value might be worth is entirely dependent on what you are bidding on and its value and your opinion. 

Some sites charge more (honestly I think only because they were first and charged what they wanted, nobody could complain as they had a monopoly).  Really, its only a matter of time before someone offers it all for free for users in exchange for advertising income.

This is the way.  Or, the future.

Apologies if this topic has come up before.  About 5 years ago an unusual hoard of John III base metal hyperpyra came to market.  I will let you follow this link for your opinions:

https://www.romanumismatics.com/article_detail?article_id=2&lang=en&tag=Byzantine

Barry Murphy has condemned these but when asked hasn't responded as to why.  I cant argue with either Murphy or Bendall; they have more knowledge and experience than I have.  I have seen a couple of these which pre-date the hoard by about 10 years, but that may not mean much.  Does anyone have experience with them or opinions?

I think the real problem here is the overall implications of this.  If one does not completely research a coin and its online and photographic history many of us would miss some of these repairs, many of which are not obvious from the photos.  Rauch may or may not be aware of the repairs illustrated here but it illustrates that in this day and age we may need to start taking much more care than we now do when considering bidding or buying any particular coin.  I am honestly fairly happy that I am at the end of my collecting and dealing career.  Things are getting complicated.

Septimius Severus, 193 - 211 AD
Æ21, 5.88 grams, Bithynia, Tium Mint
Obverse:  Laureate head of Septimius right.

Reverse:  TIANΩN, Snake coiled atop garlanded altar.

References:
Imhoof-Blumer pp. 36

Perhaps three known.
 

Next up, any platform scene.

The biggest change came with the internet.  In the old days it was buying in person (either a shop or show) or paper catalogs.  I issued catalogs from the late 80's up to 1999.  By then the internet had really taken off and had replaced catalogs.  I do miss paper lists.  Half the fun of collecting was getting the catalogs in the mail (though producing them was expensive and a lot of work).  And pricing.  Its very odd that many types back then were uber cheap and now very expensive, but also the other direction.  And of course hoards come and go.  In the mid 80's there was a hoard of mint state Constantius Gallus Centenionalii.  They were so common at shows and in lists that I wouldnt handle them.  They averaged about $20-25 at the time, I think the same would be about $150 now.  Oh yea.  I remember the hoard of Julius Caesar Aureii, They were about $1,00 at the time, now they are selling $10,000.  

We've see a lot of changes.  I cant imagine what may come in the future!

3 minutes ago, septim said:

Had the chance to purchase it and the price tag screamed: "Buy me now" 😉

Wow. Truly amazing and fantastic ‘coin’. If you ever part with it, it would have a home with me!

On 4/26/2023 at 6:21 PM, Jay GT4 said:

They said the dealer picks "world" as the category but then picks the subcategory as "ancient" which causes it to show up in the Ancient category

It doesn’t work that way actually. We pick the parent category and you can’t work backwards, so if you pick World you can’t pick ancient as a sub-category. If they are listing modern or medieval and it shows in the ancient category they are specifically doing this on purpose. 

3 hours ago, CPK said:

I wonder if @KenDorney could possibly do anything about it. I have considered sending an email to VCoins about it before.

I sent a message off to see what might be done about this.  While sales of antiquities are no longer allowed on VCoins, these are not old enough to qualify as such.  However I dont know what the current rules are about listing non-numismatic items (if they are even allowed).  

As for some listing non ancient items in the ancient section, this could simply be a matter of the dealer not knowing how to properly use the category function on the site that we see and use as dealers.  There really isnt any kind of training for the site, so some may not know how to create and use the right category structure.

In this day and age the vast majority of dealers do not see uncleaned coins.  For the most part, any coin of any interest has already been cleaned, the only remaining coins are pure junk worth pennies (but those on Ebay will still pay up to several dollars).

Berk pioneered the 'buy or bid' format and in the 80's and 90's of printed catalogs was very common but I do think in this day and age is essentially a dead concept.  Nevertheless, you can always submit a bid.  They can only deny it and you are out nothing.

I know I will be buying a copy.  Anyone who doesnt will be sorry they dont!  

Gold will always hold a premium.  Why? I dunno.  People have a weird fascination with gold from the beginning of time and as such it will probably always be a good buy.