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Who's Bidding?


Sulla80
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Sometimes provenance can highlight who has been bidding on coins that you are interested in - over 19 months this coin had 6 owners (I am the sixth).  Multiple quick turnaround sales don't tell a story of great success in "flipping".  To find our who was bidding on this coin see my notes: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/who-s-bidding

Valerian_Alexandria_white.jpg.22087e481c2c6d3490e10ba31ab5f98b.jpg

Post your coins where provenance documents more than two previous owners.

Edited by Sulla80
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This is  on the road since 1979

normal_Valerian_Anazarbus.jpg.605e83cbb02e830697697cd8e7213407.jpg

Valerian I
Cilicia, Anazarbus
Æ 30mm
Dated CY 272 (253/4).
Obv.: AVT K Π ΛIK OVAΛЄPIANOC CЄ, Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right.
Rev.: ANASAPBOV MHTPO / Γ - Γ / ЄT BOC A M K, Dionysos, raising hand over head and holding filleted thyrsus, reclining on panther right, head left.
AE, 30mm, 18.34g
Ref.: Ziegler, Anazarbos, 829.1 [dies Vs2/Rs4] (this coin cited), SNG BN 2158

ex auction Knopek, lot 420 (December 1979)
ex Kölner Münzkabinett Tyll Kroha, auction 49, lot 546 (1989)
ex Jacquier list 12, lot 222 (1990)
ex Dr. P. Vogl Collection
ex Numismatik Naumann, auction 63, lot 167 (2018)

 

 

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As I also commented on the blog, I'd suggest looking up the pricing data (I think you'll be able to quickly find all these on the firm's websites or googling the auction number + "Numisbids"). There is something interesting going on here, but I wouldn't be convinced the coin had different owners.

My first question: At how many of those auctions did the coin actually get bids? If it went unsold, then it could be that the consignor just took their unsold lots to the next firm when they didn't sell. Or it could be the firms buying it in the aftersale or just trading unsold inventory, not necessarily by bidding at auction.

When I'm doing provenance research, I'll usually also check which coins were common to multiple previous venues/owners (i.e., which coins moved around together). Sometimes that can also give clues to the owners (e.g., if any of the coins were published by the owner with the name or username on RPC or CT or here, or in a book featuring their collection, etc.). 

No matter what, though, it is unusual to have so many appearances at different venues in such a short period. If it were mine, I'd be curious enough to go searching for answers. (Or email the one I bought it from.)

29 minutes ago, shanxi said:

There were two Naville sales a year and a half apart. Therefore, probably two owners.

Actually, that's normal for Naville. (Sixbid doesn't always have their pricing data, but the first one looks like it went unsold.) Many of the coins I've bought at Naville went unsold 2 or 3 times before I got them. For some of mine they waited a couple years before trying to resell. A lot of their group lot coins will have been previously listed singly. And/or previously unsold at NAC (I've got several like that too), to whom it's related. 

I've bought a lot of coins from Kunker also that had appeared up to 3 or 4 times.

Edited by Curtis JJ
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I collect coins that illustrate the "history of numismatic knowledge" and its social networks. Coins with at least 2 named owners can give a link in a  network diagram. Three or more start to become very useful for diagramming the flows of coins between collections (and countries) over time.

Four recent acquisitions (past couple years):

HIDRIEUS 1884-2021:

Over the course of a century, this one was ex Collections of James Whittall (1819-1883), Sir Hermann Weber (1823 – 1918), Clarence S Bement (1843-1923), Richard Cyrill Lockett (1873-1950), and Hans von Aulock (d – 1980). For the most recent sales (CNG in 2011 and Noble in 2021), I don't know who the owner was:

58061039_HidrieusTetradrachm8Imagesin2Rows.jpg.4079e29479357605356f4a86a8925d5e.jpg

Satraps of Caria, Hidrieus AR Tetradrachm (23mm, 14.74g, 12h). Halikarnassos, c. 351-344 BCE.
Obv: Apollo laureate. Rev: Zeus with Labrys.
Ex-James Whittall Collection (Sotheby, Wilkinson, & Hodge, London, 10 July 1884), lot 1113;
Sir Hermann Weber Collection, 6604 (published by Spink, 1922);
Clarence S. Bement Collection (Naville VII, Lucerne, 23 June 1924), Lot 1520;
Richard Cyril Lockett Collection (Part XII/Greek IV, Glendining, London, 21 February 1961), lot 2384;
Hans von Aulock Collection (Germany & Ankara), 8046 (his ticket in my possession);
CNG e-Auction 247 (Lancaster, 12 Jan 2011), lot 145;
Noble Numismatics Auction 126 (Sydney, 24 March 2021), Lot 2768. 
Published: Comparette-Bement (ANS, 1921), Weber (Spink, 1922), SNG Lockett (1949), SNG von Aulock (1962), and others.

 

MAZAIOS, 1980s - 2019:

Here's one that was part of two important moments in recent numismatic history: (1) It was part of the first major ancient coin investment fund in the 1980s, "Athena Fund" by Merrill-Lynch, NFA, and Bruce McNall, which spectacularly collapsed (McNall went to prison and wrote a great biography about it all!); (2) it was one of the first-ever slabbed ancient coins in 2002. Heritage and ICG heavily advertised the brand new service and first tried it with the Dr. Joseph Seventko Collection and Heritage Signature Sale 296. The photography wasn't great and bids were shockingly low for some coins.

For some of my coins like this I've created "Provenance Diagrams." (Here's my blogpost on them: https://conservatoricoins.com/provenance-diagrams/ ).

1093231231_TarsosStaterProvenanceChart(28Dec2021draftimage).png.3639f01b01116a74a0da31822e489697.png

MYLASA, 1986-2021:

Here's one that was part of 3 more recent but notable collections (Peter Vogl, Peter Robert Franke, and Erich Karl):image.jpeg.318458409dd45e76d88fbc97f6e29eda.jpeg

(1) Leu Web Auction 16 (22 May 2021), Lot 1055 [biddr link; acsearch link]
(1a) Dr. P. Vogl;
(2a) Heidelberger Münzhandlung Grün 64 (Part I, “Sammlung Prof. Dr. Peter Robert Franke - Griechische Münzen”; 20 Nov 2014), Lot 1046 (with original ticket) [on ACSearch];
(2b) Prof. Dr. Peter Robert Franke;
(3a) Lanz 131 ("Münzen von Karien: Sammlung Erich Karl," 27 Nov 2006), 246 [ACSearch];
(3b) Erich Karl;
(4) Kölner Münzkabinett Auktion 49 (30 Oct 1989), Lot 27

 

TROAS, ABYDOS, 1914-2021:

Ex GMRH (a well known British numismatist), Bank Leu / Alan Walker, Jacob Hirsch Estate, and "Theodor" Prowe:

1986169685_TroasAbydosAEProwe-Egger596CNG493296GMRHCollBankLeuJacobHirsch.jpg.a8ffb7efdcf2c97aca09b630df542fa2.jpg

(1a) CNG e-493 (9 June 2021), Lot 296
(1b) From the G.M.R.H. Collection, London;
(2) Bank Leu, February 1980, acq. from Alan Walker (per coll. tag);
(2b) Ex Jacob Hirsch Estate (Collection or Inventory?) (1874-1955, BMC bio) (priv. sale, Bank Leu);
(3a) Prowe-Egger III, 596 = Brüder Egger Auktion XLVI (Wien, 11 May 1914), Lot 596 (illustrated, Plate 11);
(3b) Fedor Ivanovich (Theodor) Prowe (Moscow, 1872-1932) Collection

Edited by Curtis JJ
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Posted (edited)

Thanks @Shanxi for the added auction reference from Naville - I had not seen that one.  Thanks @John Conduitt for plugging in the price changes - on the unsold lots hard to know what price they changed hands - but the starting price from the auction house could be reasonable reference.   The Naville auction does reference the CNG auction but ignored the Savoca auction.  It does look like a mix of purchases of unsold inventory, and perhaps one seller trying to sell in multiple venues.

@Curtis JJ I am a fan of your provenance diagrams! Thanks for sharing this one (above).

 

Edited by Sulla80
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On 8/14/2022 at 10:33 AM, Curtis JJ said:

I collect coins that illustrate the "history of numismatic knowledge" and its social networks. Coins with at least 2 named owners can give a link in a  network diagram. Three or more start to become very useful for diagramming the flows of coins between collections (and countries) over time.

Four recent acquisitions (past couple years):

HIDRIEUS 1884-2021:

Over the course of a century, this one was ex Collections of James Whittall (1819-1883), Sir Hermann Weber (1823 – 1918), Clarence S Bement (1843-1923), Richard Cyrill Lockett (1873-1950), and Hans von Aulock (d – 1980). For the most recent sales (CNG in 2011 and Noble in 2021), I don't know who the owner was:

58061039_HidrieusTetradrachm8Imagesin2Rows.jpg.4079e29479357605356f4a86a8925d5e.jpg

Satraps of Caria, Hidrieus AR Tetradrachm (23mm, 14.74g, 12h). Halikarnassos, c. 351-344 BCE.
Obv: Apollo laureate. Rev: Zeus with Labrys.
Ex-James Whittall Collection (Sotheby, Wilkinson, & Hodge, London, 10 July 1884), lot 1113;
Sir Hermann Weber Collection, 6604 (published by Spink, 1922);
Clarence S. Bement Collection (Naville VII, Lucerne, 23 June 1924), Lot 1520;
Richard Cyril Lockett Collection (Part XII/Greek IV, Glendining, London, 21 February 1961), lot 2384;
Hans von Aulock Collection (Germany & Ankara), 8046 (his ticket in my possession);
CNG e-Auction 247 (Lancaster, 12 Jan 2011), lot 145;
Noble Numismatics Auction 126 (Sydney, 24 March 2021), Lot 2768. 
Published: Comparette-Bement (ANS, 1921), Weber (Spink, 1922), SNG Lockett (1949), SNG von Aulock (1962), and others.

 

MAZAIOS, 1980s - 2019:

Here's one that was part of two important moments in recent numismatic history: (1) It was part of the first major ancient coin investment fund in the 1980s, "Athena Fund" by Merrill-Lynch, NFA, and Bruce McNall, which spectacularly collapsed (McNall went to prison and wrote a great biography about it all!); (2) it was one of the first-ever slabbed ancient coins in 2002. Heritage and ICG heavily advertised the brand new service and first tried it with the Dr. Joseph Seventko Collection and Heritage Signature Sale 296. The photography wasn't great and bids were shockingly low for some coins.

For some of my coins like this I've created "Provenance Diagrams." (Here's my blogpost on them: https://conservatoricoins.com/provenance-diagrams/ ).

1093231231_TarsosStaterProvenanceChart(28Dec2021draftimage).png.3639f01b01116a74a0da31822e489697.png

MYLASA, 1986-2021:

Here's one that was part of 3 more recent but notable collections (Peter Vogl, Peter Robert Franke, and Erich Karl):image.jpeg.318458409dd45e76d88fbc97f6e29eda.jpeg

(1) Leu Web Auction 16 (22 May 2021), Lot 1055 [biddr link; acsearch link]
(1a) Dr. P. Vogl;
(2a) Heidelberger Münzhandlung Grün 64 (Part I, “Sammlung Prof. Dr. Peter Robert Franke - Griechische Münzen”; 20 Nov 2014), Lot 1046 (with original ticket) [on ACSearch];
(2b) Prof. Dr. Peter Robert Franke;
(3a) Lanz 131 ("Münzen von Karien: Sammlung Erich Karl," 27 Nov 2006), 246 [ACSearch];
(3b) Erich Karl;
(4) Kölner Münzkabinett Auktion 49 (30 Oct 1989), Lot 27

 

TROAS, ABYDOS, 1914-2021:

Ex GMRH (a well known British numismatist), Bank Leu / Alan Walker, Jacob Hirsch Estate, and "Theodor" Prowe:

1986169685_TroasAbydosAEProwe-Egger596CNG493296GMRHCollBankLeuJacobHirsch.jpg.a8ffb7efdcf2c97aca09b630df542fa2.jpg

(1a) CNG e-493 (9 June 2021), Lot 296
(1b) From the G.M.R.H. Collection, London;
(2) Bank Leu, February 1980, acq. from Alan Walker (per coll. tag);
(2b) Ex Jacob Hirsch Estate (Collection or Inventory?) (1874-1955, BMC bio) (priv. sale, Bank Leu);
(3a) Prowe-Egger III, 596 = Brüder Egger Auktion XLVI (Wien, 11 May 1914), Lot 596 (illustrated, Plate 11);
(3b) Fedor Ivanovich (Theodor) Prowe (Moscow, 1872-1932) Collection

Referencing the first coin, I would never have guessed that it was the same one given that in the 3 photos from 1922-1949 the scratch at the top all but disappears from the photos; it is slightly visible in the 1924 photo but just barely. And then starting in 1949 the photos make it seem that some of Apollo's nose has rubbed off! Fortunately it's back in full by 1962 😁 Quite impressive seeing it all come together like this, kudos! 

 

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8 hours ago, Restitutor said:

the scratch at the top all but disappears from the photos;

depends on the lighting

Light from the left (1922/1949) nearly invisible

Light from the right (1921/1962) clearly visible

Light from Top: in between

Edited by shanxi
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19 hours ago, Restitutor said:

I would never have guessed that it was the same one

 

11 hours ago, shanxi said:

depends on the lighting

Edited to add from previous comment:
58061039_HidrieusTetradrachm8Imagesin2Rows.jpg.4079e29479357605356f4a86a8925d5e.jpg

 

Yeah, the differences can be quite dramatic. Especially for older European plates/photos, the biggest source of variation is often that they were using plaster casts of the coins, not the coins themselves. (European/British firms did this until ~World War II, with a few European stragglers still doing it at least in the mid-to-late 1950s.) Americans used actual photos of coins from the start. (Which is really odd, because I suspect the 1922 photo, not showing the upper reverse scratch very well, is probably a photo of the coin, done by Comparette at the ANS. I think it may be partly lighting as shanxi says. But maybe it was a cast?) (Edit: Just noticed the 1922 ANS-Comparette photo is also a plaster cast. The reverse scratch at 12h doesn't show -- but the ding at 8h-rev is seriously exaggerated!) A bad cast is the reason Apollo's nose is missing in the 1949 photo!

Cast photography can be even more dramatic. Here is one of my coins, photographed as a plaster cast three times in the 1930s for publication by a single author (H. Goodacre), with major variations.

He actually made three different sets of casts all with dramatically different flaws/defects, one per publication (his handbook in 1933, his Numismatic Chronicle articles in 1931 & 1938). Where did all these casts end up going? I'd sure like to have some!

John Ducas Vatatzes of Nicaea. AE Tetarteron.

image.jpeg.f44dc8e63df30869f811486bf73fa647.jpeg

image.png.09d329bda259d86727389c4ffd7e0e90.png image.png.b5094586474df7d23a343cd9467a979b.png

image.jpeg.0b254e0073303fa1440b7b928011f8bc.jpeg

 

Of course, it can get even harder when you start trying to match them to 19th century engraved line drawings! Or Giovanni Dattari's pencil rubbings of plater casts! (Or the many other forms of numismatic imagery there have been over the decades and centuries.)
 

SOME LIGHT READING FOR THE CURIOUS:

Hollard, Dominique (1991) “L'illustration numismatique au XIXe siècle.” Revue Numismatique  (Année 1991), 6th Series, Vol. 33:  pp. 7-42 & pl. I-III (separate). https://www.persee.fr/doc/numi_0484-8942_1991_num_6_33_1952

Hoover, Oliver D (2012) “Paper, Plaster, Sulfur, Foil: A Brief History of Numismatic DataANS Magazine (Spring 2012), pp. 18-26. [.pdf avail on Academia / 28753342]

Kraft, Jesse (2021) “The Acrylic Slides of William Guild.” ANS Magazine (Fall 2021, Issue 3), pp. 28-41. HARD COPY in JACKSON-JACOBS LIBRARY.

Tribute to Leon Dardel [CT Post 382322, 19 Jun 2021, @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

https://probvs.net/Dardel/index.html

Edited by Curtis JJ
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