Septimius Severus Denarius

[The_Collector]

Hi everyone,

I am a novice collector who just got started and I acquired this particular denarius through an assorted lot of coins. I have researched the coin and just feel like something is off on it. I wanted to know your opinions on the coin. Is it a fake? A casting? or maybe it was struck with really bad dies? I tried to take the best photos I could. There are a few raised lies running across the obverse of the coin and on the reverse there is this bulge of metal. Overall a lot of the details are kind of smudgy. Thank you!

The coin weights 3.372 grams.

Obverse: SEVERVS PIVS AVG

Reverse: PM TR P XVIII COS III PP

 

[John Conduitt]

Welcome. Yes, it doesn't look right. This is a proper one https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/septimius_severus_ad_193211_rome_denarius_ar/1697464/Default.aspx

[Al Kowsky]

It's a cast fake.

[Marsyas Mike]

In my inexpert opinion, your coins is a "limes" issue - ancient, but not official.  The limes was the Roman frontier, populated by Roman soldiers, traders, and local "barbarians."  These coins are found in abundance in such areas and there is a lot of debate about whether or not, or to what extent, they were "official" or outright forgeries.  Heck if I know.  But they are very collectible and sometimes the workmanship is quite good - as yours is.  So congratulations.  

Coin Talk had several threads on limes coins, as this one:  https://www.cointalk.com/threads/limes-denarius.243995/   In that thread John Anthony linked this helpful article:  https://www.academia.edu/3632930/Plated_and_other_fake_Roman_coins

Here are a couple of limes Septimius Severus denarii I have: 

 

[Curtis JJ]

1 hour ago, Marsyas Mike said:

In my inexpert opinion, your coins is a "limes" issue - ancient, but not official. 

I'm glad you brought that up @Marsyas Mike -- I immediately wondered exactly that. Not quite sure how many "limes" I have (maybe a dozen or so?), but I've always really liked them for a variety of reasons. For one thing, I find the patinas really beautiful and fascinating when looking at them all together. For another, they're generally very cheap. I've bought group lots of them under $10 (USD) a piece.

A pair of related questions I've always had:
(1) Are "limes" cast coins? Or struck from dies cast from official issues? Or just struck in base metal using official or imitative dies? Or some cast, some struck? Never found a proper answer (but haven't looked that hard either).
(2) Can an "authentic" limes denarius have a casting seam? Do the seams on ancient casts look different from the seams on modern cast fakes? I've seen a few auction listings that describe ancient counterfeits with seams, but I don't know if I've ever seen a confirmed case in hand (unless that's what's going on with one of mine, which certainly looks like a "limes" not an AR Denarius, but about which I've always wondered if it were a modern fake instead).

These aren't great photos as they're actually frames captured from a video I made about my "limes" subcollection, but these are some of my Severan era limes denarii -- hopefully actual "limes," not modern fake, I'm more confident about some than others (I've got some Flavian & Adoptive too):

 

And then next to their "official," legitimate AR Denarii of similar types:

Edited August 2, 2022 by Curtis JJ

[The_Collector]

Thank you everyone for your responses! They were super helpful and confirmed my fears haha. @Marsyas Mike Yeah I have my suspicions that the coin is a limes because it has that look of a limes but it still has the look of an ancient coin. My only fear is the coin I was after in the lot is a Hadrian denarius with a crescent moon and star for the reverse. the coin looks more like the real deal; however it being for the same lot and the weight being 3.014 grams makes me a bit nervous. Thank you all again I had a really great time reading your responses!

[sand]

4 hours ago, Curtis JJ said:

A pair of related questions I've always had:
(1) Are "limes" cast coins? Or struck from dies cast from official issues? Or just struck in base metal using official or imitative dies? Or some cast, some struck? Never found a proper answer (but haven't looked that hard either).
(2) Can an "authentic" limes denarius have a casting seam? Do the seams on ancient casts look different from the seams on modern cast fakes? I've seen a few auction listings that describe ancient counterfeits with seams, but I don't know if I've ever seen a confirmed case in hand (unless that's what's going on with one of mine, which certainly looks like a "limes" not an AR Denarius, but about which I've always wondered if it were a modern fake instead).

@Curtis JJ Nice limes denarii. I know very little about limes denarii. I don't know enough, to know, if your limes denarii are authentic or fake. Limes denarii are rather interesting. Here is an article on Forum Ancient Coins, which says, that some limes denarii were cast, and some were struck.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=limes denarius 

Edited August 2, 2022 by sand

[Nardo]

Limes doesn't mean it's fake.  It's just an ancient unofficial issue that was in fact used as currency.  It is still an artifact and these are still cool to have.  I saw you said that your fears were confirmed and I just wanted to make sure you realize that it isn't fake, just not a true denarius.

[maridvnvm]

My biggest question with "limes denarii" is how do we know that they are ancient "coins of necessity" and not other possibilities such as ancient cast fakes, fouree cores or even cast fakes produced in more modern times,

I have several that I have gathered over the years and I do not know how to answer these questions. I am aware that modern cast fake sellers have been selling base metal fakes along side silver casts.

The term "Limes" comes from "Limes falsa" which are cast copper imitations of AE denominations found near the limes, the northern borders of the Roman empire. "Limes denarii" is a more recent term to cover cast base metal denarii.

What worries me is that many of the "limes denarii" that have emerged in the past 20 odd years are of types that are relatively scarce today. Why would that be?

The following coin might be a "Limes falsa" - but how do we know that it is ancient?

Septimius Severus, Ae As - Cast? copying RIC 830b

Obv:- SEVERVS PIVS AVG, Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right
Rev:- VIRTVS AVGVSTOR, S-C, Roma seated left holding Victory and parazonium, shield behind
Minted in ???.
Reference:- copying BMCRE 815. Cohen -. copying RIC 830b (rated Scarce)

Weight 4.45g. 21.60mm.

I have a few "limes denarii" but that nagging question still remains

Septimius Severus limes Denarius - copies RIC 520a - Cast
Obv:– L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX. Laureate head right
Rev:– VOTIS / DECEN / NALI / BVS. Legend in 4 lines, all within wreath
Copies a coin minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 194
Reference(s) – Copies RIC IV 520a

Martin

[maridvnvm]

UPDATE. Well I wasn't expecting this but I went to try and find some examples of modern fakes purporting to be limes denarii. I have found many dozens that are either currently or recently placed on the market.

This has confirmed to me that my DECENALIBVS is a modern creation. I bought it about 15 years ago. It looks as though they are still creating more casts from the same host or from aftercasts of the host.