Provenance hunt - Weber Collection

[Larssten]

Hello! I

am doing provenance research on a very rare Vitellius aureus with his father on the reverse.

I have made it to Jacques Schulman (Amsterdam, Netherlands), Auction March 5th 1923 lot 982 (M.L. Vierordt Collection) which refers to a Weber collection, but I am at a dead-end after following 2 different Weber collections.

In the lot description it is supposedly from the Weber Collection where I have identified two alternative paths:

Alternative 1: Hermann David Weber A German physicial pracicing medicine in England. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_David_Weber Most famous for his Greek collection (Spink 1922 Vol 1), but this book also states that he sold his Roman coins in a June 29-30th 1893 by Sotheby, Wilkinson & Hodge. I found the 1893 catalogue, but the two Vitellius aureii in this catalogue (lot 139 and 140) does not match.

Alternative 2: Eduard Friedrich Weber (Hamburg) Sold his Roman coin collection through Dr. Jacob Hirsch: - Auction 21 - Nov. 16th 1908 (Greek Coins) - Auction 24 - May 10th 1909 (Roman coins - lot 1145 a similar Vitellius aureus does not match)

Thus, I am at a dead-end at the moment.

Questions:

- Does the 1923 reference in Schulman refer to another Weber than the two above?

- Did the two mentioned Weber's above sell their Roman coins at another auction or elsewhere?

Very grateful for any help! Thanks!

Edited March 25 by Larssten

[Deinomenid]

24 minutes ago, Larssten said:

- Does the 1923 reference in Schulman refer to another Weber than the two above?

- Did the two mentioned Weber's above sell their Roman coins at another auction or elsewhere?

The John Spring 1880-1980  Ancient Coin Auction Catalogues mentions only those two Webers and cross-references only the auctions you say.

That doesn't 100% prove there weren't other Webers or other auctions, but should help.

[rasiel]

Those huge old collections often were broken up among many different dealers and spanning years. Where's the pic of yours? I'll try to help.

Rasiel

[Larssten]

Thank you very much, @Deinomenid and @rasiel for your replies. I am new to this forum, so managed to include some photos now. 

Here is the coin in question:

Vitellius, with L. Vitellius the Elder, AD 69. AV aureus (19 mm; 7,19 g). Rome mint, struck April-December AD 69.
Laureate head of Vitellius right / Laureate and draped bust of L. Vitellius the Elder right, holding eagle-tipped scepter.
Calicó 569 RIC I 76 BMCRE 10-11

 

Here is the coin listed and pictured in Jacques Schulman (Amsterdam, Netherlands), Auction March 5th 1923 lot 982 (M.L. Vierordt Collection) , giving the final reference to the (un-identified) Weber Collection.

[Larssten]

To me, that could mean that the Weber Collection mention in Schulman 1923, is most likely one of these two Webers. 

- If Alternative 1, and Hermann Weber, the coin did not make it to the 1893 sale, which has only 353 lots of Roman coins, with two lots of Vitellius aureii, without match (lot 139 and 140 below), or sold at a different auction or outside of auction. 

- If Alternative 2, Eduard Friedrich Weber, he might have sold his Roman coins at other auctions than the Hirsch Auction 21 and 24 or outside auction. 

Here is the Roman part of his sale at Hirsch Auction 24 - May 10th 1909 with lot 1145 a similar Vitellius aureus, but not the same coin.

Here is the Greek auction of Eduard Friedrich Weber:

[Deinomenid]

Not to teach you to suck eggs, but I  just wanted to make sure you were familiar with r numis (rnumis.com) and its superb collection of catalogues.

Looking through similarly dated ones might help you locate your coin. Occasionally  of course attributions such as the one for your coin were  willfully or accidentally made, but here's  hoping that's not the case.  Good luck!

 

[rasiel]

Found around 20 but none were yours. Sorry bud 😪

Rasiel 

[Larssten]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:35 AM, rasiel said:

Found around 20 but none were yours. Sorry bud 😪

Rasiel 

Thanks - where did you find the 20 other references for this coin?

[rasiel]

Hi Lars, it's my own database of past auctions. Happy to help hunt down any other high profile coins like this 🙂