Left-hand orientated Herakles at Tarentum stater

[I_v_a_n]

An unusual stater with left-hand orientated Herakles was sold at last Rauch Auction 117 lot 275 for absolutely bargain price for such an interesting unique, unpublished piece.

I was very tempted to bid on it but after o lot of hesitations decided to follow my general rule to avoid any unpublished and unique in gold. I can not say anything regarding authenticity from photo and I am shure that even in hands too because for me it looks OK. But I have had a bad experience with a gold forgeries which can be identificated only throught databases with clones and only by experts with acces to such a data.

So, what do you think (or may be someone even knows) about this stater? 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by I_v_a_n
mistakes

[panzerman]

That coin still sold for 16K euros.  To me it looks OK too. Too bad we have no way of carbon dating coins. That would end the problem.  In future many coins will be unearthed with modern metal detecting equipment/ sites found with LIDAR.

Also how many "unpublished" coins now reside in private collections.????

Its not in new book by Hoover on Magna Graecia.

John

person that bid 16K+ fees thinks its real!

 

[I_v_a_n]

1 hour ago, panzerman said:

Too bad we have no way of carbon dating coins. That would end the problem.

 

It's not so bad from the technical point of view with instrumental analyses. We have reliable method of dating of gold objects based on measurement of Helium concentration. Method usable for archaeological gold objects (of cource coins too) and determines a time dating back to last melting point of an object.

I know for shure from literature that such a device used by Hermitage. From rumors I have heard that the same device present in British Museum and Roma has access to analyses (only rumors...). Also from rumors I have heard that NAC has an access to such type analyses.

This is also a question for me to think about it. If coin genuine, you can easily sell it throught Roma, NAC, CNG and etc. and obtain a hummer 50-100 kEUR. Why are you sell a coin for 16 kEUR if it's for shure worth much more?

[panzerman]

Good to know!

Auctions are strange animals at times. Recently Teutonburger listed a "unique" AV Aureus struck 255-57AD (vz-st) grade/ Calico plate coin (naturally since only one known.) It failed to sell at 7200 euros. They offered it at that price (unsold list) so I bought it😁 Last time it appeared in 2004 Ars Classica auction. The Rauch coin was only sehr schone (VF) quality/ sold 16K. Of course no one can predict future/ maybe huge hoard of my Gallienus coin will be found this week/ ditto for Taras Stater. But odds are against that happening.....

[Phil Anthos]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:51 AM, panzerman said:

Its not in new book by Hoover on Magna Graecia.

 

That's not surprising. 

[Deinomenid]

@I_v_a_n did you ever  find out anything? I missed this post, but  there's of course  nothing on r numis or in Fischer-Bossert's giant work as I'm sure you know. What's really odd is  it were to be  unique and genuine you'd have thought they'd have asked F-B and hyped  his positive response if there had been one.

Someone plus underbidder believed in it though as the usual facing versions of that can go for quite a lot less!

[I_v_a_n]

@Deinomenid, since that time I do not do anything. I put all my efforts for research before an auction because I was thinking to partisipate or not on the bidding on this lot. But I have found that the authenticity of this stater is a question of belief and decided to be distrustful in this case. So, no changes in my opinion from the starting post of this thread.

[I_v_a_n]

Second example now appeared in NAC:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=5189&l=6363366

[Deinomenid]

4 hours ago, I_v_a_n said:

Second example now appeared in NAC:

Vlasto –. Fischer-Bossert –. Historia Numorum Italy –

Hmmmmmm.....and  no provenance either. None for a century and then 2 pop up. How odd 🙂

And that's not the only rather controversial  gold in the auction. The leading expert on Cyprus gold explicitly condemned a piece they are selling. They say so, at least, though say they are right, Markou wrong. In sum, it is our opinion that the type is not dispositive of the authenticity of the piece, and it has all the characteristics of an ancient coin.

That sentence reads rather legalistically to me. Coin here.

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=5189&l=6363531

 

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

Vlasto –. Fischer-Bossert –. Historia Numorum Italy –

Hmmmmmm.....and  no provenance either. None for a century and then 2 pop up. How odd 🙂

And that's not the only rather controversial  gold in the auction. The leading expert on Cyprus gold explicitly condemned a piece they are selling. They say so, at least, though say they are right, Markou wrong. In sum, it is our opinion that the type is not dispositive of the authenticity of the piece, and it has all the characteristics of an ancient coin.

That sentence reads rather legalistically to me. Coin here.

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=5189&l=6363531

 

To be fair, an earlier sentence is much more unequivocal: "In our opinion, the coin is clearly of ancient manufacture, and genuine in all respects."

By the way, if one looks carefully at the figure on the reverse, I'm pretty sure that's Artemis. 

 

[Kaleun96]

Granted I know absolutely zilch about the type or Cypriot gold coinage in general but to me it looks like the coin might be overstruck. Those little crevices in the surface remind me of overstruck coins where the metal folds over or in on itself but doesn't always fully close the gap. Then that line extending down and across the top of the lion's body also makes me think it's been overstruck.

I could be totally wrong, just throwing it out there as it wouldn't be the first fake overstruck on a genuine coin and it would explain why the fabric of the coin appears ancient. There's no hint of an undertype but that's probably what a forger would intend as it would potentially raise more questions than answers.

[I_v_a_n]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

Granted I know absolutely zilch about the type or Cypriot gold coinage in general but to me it looks like the coin might be overstruck. Those little crevices in the surface remind me of overstruck coins where the metal folds over or in on itself but doesn't always fully close the gap. Then that line extending down and across the top of the lion's body also makes me think it's been overstruck.

I could be totally wrong, just throwing it out there as it wouldn't be the first fake overstruck on a genuine coin and it would explain why the fabric of the coin appears ancient. There's no hint of an undertype but that's probably what a forger would intend as it would potentially raise more questions than answers.

For me this is a one from the "red flags" features of possible forgery of pressed type in this case. This is only my modest opinion.

[Deinomenid]

9 hours ago, DonnaML said:

In our opinion, the coin is clearly of ancient manufacture

This turn of phrase is in the same camp to me. No-one (I think) is saying the coin is  not likely ancient, it's  just what may or may not  have been done  to it since. They - naturally given Markou's strongly-held view it is wrong - phrase everything  extremely carefully, including that line. I'm sure it will find an eager  buyer though.

[Deinomenid]

Here's another. I really don't  know what NAC are playing at, especially after that last auction. Selling this heavily-tooled reverse piece as ef

Tetradrachm circa 480-475, AR 25 mm, 17.30 g. Slow quadriga driven r. by charioteer, holding kentron and reins; Nike flying above to crown horses. Rev. ΣVRAK – OΣ ? ΙΟΝ Pearl-diademed head of nymph Arethusa r., wearing pearl necklace; around, four dolphins. Jameson 739 (these dies). Gillet 61 (these dies). SNG ANS 666 (these dies). Boheringer 207. A portrait of excellent Archaic style and a lovely old cabinet tone.
Good very fine / extremely fine

Maybe the bosses went on holiday again. This does not look like the real  relevant Boehringer and nothing  like the Jameson  coin they reference.

Jameson -

Boehringer -

 

The coin NAC are selling is widely believed to have gone to the Lanz barbershop (behind the diadem and down the neck) or possibly an earlier, but still modern hairdressing establishment for some significant retooling.

Just thought I'd flag it.

[Deinomenid]

On 11/7/2024 at 1:47 PM, Deinomenid said:

I really don't  know what NAC are playing at, especially after that last auction. Selling this heavily-tooled reverse piece as ef

Shows what little I know about prices - this  just sold for an extraordinary 17,000 plus comm. AND  I found (it wasn't hard to find) the prior seller had admitted it was recut, something NAC didn't quite manage to squeeze into their description. I had heard several dealers were telling clients not to bid on it so presumably it could have gone for even more...

 

Nomos' comment on it being "recut" is here below. I also  just noticed the listing was misspelled as Boheringer by NAC - presumably by accident & not to make it a little harder for someone without enough experience to cross-check!

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4759&lot=53

[AncientJoe]

1 hour ago, Deinomenid said:

Shows what little I know about prices - this  just sold for an extraordinary 17,000 plus comm. AND  I found (it wasn't hard to find) the prior seller had admitted it was recut, something NAC didn't quite manage to squeeze into their description. I had heard several dealers were telling clients not to bid on it so presumably it could have gone for even more...

 

Nomos' comment on it being "recut" is here below. I also  just noticed the listing was misspelled as Boheringer by NAC - presumably by accident & not to make it a little harder for someone without enough experience to cross-check!

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4759&lot=53

Well spotted, and very disappointing that this was omitted / missed in the latest description...

[Rand]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:51 PM, panzerman said:

Too bad we have no way of carbon dating coins.

Not yet. Gold radiometric dating could be possible. For example, there were studies and even practical applications of radioactive decay of an isotope of gold that produces helium. The amount of helium is proportional to the age of an object. Helium molecules stay inside the gold object until it is melted, and the process starts again. The problem is that the amount of helium is tiny - it is easier to date nuggets than the relatively recent coins. Hopefully, one day, we will answer many numismatic questions.