Edit: Found it! Does anyone have Etienne Bourgey Dec. 1909?

[Curtisimo]

I haven’t been able to find it online anywhere. I checked Heidelberg and rnumis.

If anyone knows if it is online somewhere or has it and would be willing to check a lot for me I would be extremely grateful.

Edit: Thanks to Curtis over on CT I found it.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k70508187

Edited December 16, 2023 by Curtisimo

[rNumis]

Now where has that been hiding 😄

I've lost count of how many times i looked for it on gallica. Outstanding. I'll get it added shortly. Thanks!

[DonnaML]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:58 PM, Curtisimo said:

Edit: Thanks to Curtis over on CT I found it.

 

@Curtisimo, speaking of Curtis, I was wondering if you could please send me a private message when you have a chance, with his contact information. I refuse to sign on to Coin Talk again to post or to send private messages -- yes, I admittedly bear a grudge for the way certain people behaved there, both in general and towards me in particular. And I've tried contacting him through the form on his website to ask if he could please check for me a couple of references to catalogs he apparently owns that aren't online, but I never got a response to my inquiry. Thanks!

[Curtisimo]

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

@Curtisimo, speaking of Curtis, I was wondering if you could please send me a private message when you have a chance, with his contact information. I refuse to sign on to Coin Talk again to post or to send private messages -- yes, I admittedly bear a grudge for the way certain people behaved there, both in general and towards me in particular. And I've tried contacting him through the form on his website to ask if he could please check for me a couple of references to catalogs he apparently owns that aren't online, but I never got a response to my inquiry. Thanks!

I can certainly ask him if he is okay with me sharing his contact info. However, there is a chance that I might have what you are looking for in my own library. Feel free to respond here or PM with what you’re trying to find and I’ll see if I have it.

[Curtisimo]

9 hours ago, rNumis said:

Now where has that been hiding 😄

I've lost count of how many times i looked for it on gallica. Outstanding. I'll get it added shortly. Thanks!

Glad that my floundering about looking for it led to such a good outcome. 🙂 Rnumis is without a doubt one of my favorite numismatic resources online. Thank you for all the work you do.

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, Curtisimo said:

I can certainly ask him if he is okay with me sharing his contact info. However, there is a chance that I might have what you are looking for in my own library. Feel free to respond here or PM with what you’re trying to find and I’ll see if I have it.

Yes, of course, @Curtisimo, please ask him; we were never anything other than friendly on Coin Talk and hopefully he would have no objections to my contacting him. Unfortunately, I couldn't find his email address anywhere on his website -- only the form I filled out, which I have no idea if he ever even saw.

The two catalog entries for which I hoped he could send me the relevant pages were from the following catalogs, both of which are listed on his website as ones he owns:

Münzen & Medaillen AG, Basel, Switzerland, List 510, May 1988, No. 177 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of L. Caesius, Crawford 298/1).

H.H. Kricheldorf, Freiburg, Germany, Auktion 46, 17 Jul 1998 in Stuttgart, Lot 187 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of L. Cassius Caeicianus, Crawford 321/1).

Of course, if you're going to be contacting him on my behalf anyway, you could give him this information yourself if you like.

A third catalog I'm interested in that Curtis doesn't appear to have, but which I might as well mention just in case anyone else out there has it, is the Mario Ratto, Milan, Italy, Fixed Price List Fall 1995, No. 56 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of Mn. Aquillius, Crawford 303/1).

Many thanks for offering to help!

[Curtisimo]

14 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Münzen & Medaillen AG, Basel, Switzerland, List 510, May 1988, No. 177 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of L. Caesius, Crawford 298/1).

I initially thought you wrote 117 and almost missed the bargain list at the back where your coin is listed. No illustration, but it does list your coin per below.

I’ll send Curtis a link to this thread.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Curtisimo

[DonnaML]

10 minutes ago, Curtisimo said:

I initially thought you wrote 117 and almost missed the bargain list at the back where your coin is listed. No illustration, but it does list your coin per below.

I’ll send Curtis a link to this thread.

Thank you so much. Too bad there's no photo, but at least the description matches. And I have no reason to doubt the pedigree, considering that it was provided by Kölner Münzkabinett, from whom I bought the coin at an auction a couple of months ago.

Edited December 17, 2023 by DonnaML

[Curtisimo]

1 minute ago, DonnaML said:

Thank you so much. Too bad there's no photo, but at least the description matches. And I have no reason to doubt the pedigree, considering that it was provided by Kölner Münzkabinett, from whom I bought the coin at an auctiona couple of months ago.

I’m curious to know if the coin came with any tags? I’ve never seen a M&M FPL tag before.

[DonnaML]

6 minutes ago, Curtisimo said:

I’m curious to know if the coin came with any tags? I’ve never seen a M&M FPL tag before.

No, I'm afraid it came with only the Kölner Münzkabinett tag. Which I suppose raises the question of how Kölner knew about the M&M pedigree. Although not all auction companies bother saving that kind of documentation or passing it along to buyers.

The only M&M coin tag I have -- undated except that I know it's pre-2004 when the Swiss office of M&M closed -- is this one:

[Curtisimo]

16 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

it came with only the Kölner Münzkabinett tag. Which I suppose raises the question of how Kölner knew about the M&M pedigree.

The only viable answer is that at some point a tag (either M&M or a collector tag) was discarded before the coin reached you. This sort of thing drives me crazy and it is why I tend to not buy from auction firms that routinely discard ephemera.

Kolner may not have been the house that misplaced the tag though. It could have been whoever they bought it from.

[Curtis JJ]

5 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Münzen & Medaillen AG, Basel, Switzerland, List 510, May 1988, No. 177 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of L. Caesius, Crawford 298/1).

H.H. Kricheldorf, Freiburg, Germany, Auktion 46, 17 Jul 1998 in Stuttgart, Lot 187 (supposedly a Roman Republican denarius of L. Cassius Caeicianus, Crawford 321/1).

Hi Donna -- I just looked and found the email, sorry to have missed it! But I am glad you wrote and that now I've figured that out.

I see @Curtisimo fortunately also has the M&M FPL 510 to check in my absence -- I'll look over everything and follow up in the morning.

(Always nice to be able to put the catalogs to work: some of them don't get much use after my first look-through and annotations -- spend lonely months and years on the shelf before they get a chance to come down and shine!)

[Curtis JJ]

All right, good news Donna!

Not only is that is the correct coin (photo matches your sale listing), but you get further provenance to another notable sale, The Moreira Collection Sale, Part I, Superior Galleries (Beverly Hills, 31 May - 1 Jun 1988), Lot 1684 (p. 141):

 

I love when that happens! I don't know anything much about Moreira except that it's a big and well-known collection sale. Not sure if it's a collector's last name or a pseudonym. No intro essay or anything in the catalog & I've never noticed a first name given. It also contained many modern coins and was sold over at least three sales at Superior c. 1988-9 or so.

From my notes, it contained (in part II), Naxos Tetradrachm (old style), 4X Dekadrachms by Euainetos [3X] & Kimon [1] & Nero Port of Ostia Sestertius. I always like to know my coins formerly shared collection quarters with the great masterpieces!

On to Kricheldorf...

The Krich. 46 catalog did not name a consignor for this portion of the sale. (It had a collection of German coins or something later, but not for the ancient.)

From Kricheldorf Auktion 46 (Stuttgart, 17 Jul 1998) Lot 187:

 

Great coin -- Now to figure out where Collector Moreira got it from!

Your coin is also illustrated (from the Kricheldorf photo) on p. 150 of Richard Schaefer "Processed" Binder 19 (321_02_od) (The hyperlinked index below doesn't give pages for Crawford 321/1 but they're up there in the right order, sorted by control symbol -- a bunch of them!) I was hoping I might see something before 1988, but no luck (unless it's in the wrong place or I overlooked it):

 

(Here are some other Kricheldorf 46 Denarii on ANS's SITNAM. Yours isn't up yet, but it may be in the future once they're processed more of Schaefer's data: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/results?q=kricheldorf+46)

Edited December 17, 2023 by Curtis JJ

[I_v_a_n]

I'm sorry for my impudence to enter into this thread with my offtopic, but may be here I also can find a help with M&M Basel list No. 380 (August 1976), coin No. 23? I'm also looking for provenance proof which is known only from auction description without old bags / tickets or other confirmation. Thank you in advance!

[Curtis JJ]

13 minutes ago, I_v_a_n said:

M&M Basel list No. 380 (August 1976), coin No. 23?

Oh, too bad -- that's one of my gaps among the later lists. I have ...353–374 AND 385–387...  but I'm missing 375-384. Hopefully someone else will notice and be able to share.

I know which coin you mean, though, from its recent sale. Great portrait of Nero and Colossus! I'm interested in these types -- seems like they would confirm that Nero's Colossus had the radiate crown during his lifetime (refuting the idea that it was only added later in the Flavian era)?

Also, I wonder if it would be in Banti & Simonetti's Corpus Nummorum Romanorum? It would be one of the last volumes (not sure which), published c. 1978 or 1979, so there would be time for them to have included the 1976 M&M sale. (I don't have the CNR volumes, but they're meant to be pretty comprehensive of known specimens. I just found my new Nero/Agrippina Drachm from Caesarea in their vol XVI, no 73.)

Edited December 17, 2023 by Curtis JJ

[DonnaML]

Thank you so very much, @Curtis JJ!! That's wonderful. I have no doubt that both the Kricheldorf and Moreira photos are of my coin, which I bought at retail this August from Münzenhandlung M. Raffler, Hettenshausen (bei München), Germany (see my write-up at https://www.numisforums.com/topic/5055-roman-republican-coins-88-89-mn-aquillius-solluna-l-cassius-caeicianus-ceresoxen/#comment-64550 ) :

 

 

It's always easier to match photos when the strike is slightly off-center like this!

Now that I've seen the Kricheldorf auction description, I'm pretty sure that the tag that Raffler sent me with the coin must be the Kricheldorf tag, since the text is identical to that description. I don't know whose handwriting that is on the back, but it must be roughly contemporaneous since whoever it was had access to the auction results. It appears that the coin sold for DM 215.05 at the Kricheldorf auction, on the estimate of DM 150.00:

Regarding SITNAM, I've never been to that website, but what exactly does it allow one to do? Search the Schaefer RRDP results (after they've been entered into the database) by dealer/auction house and auction/lot number? I would think that only helps if you already have an idea of a coin's pedigree, rather than just the Crawford number. Although it would still be helpful if one could search for particular control numbers or symbols within a Crawford number.

Entirely separately, do you happen to have any examples of James W. Curtis's handwriting? As I may have mentioned to you on Coin Talk a couple of years ago, my copy of his 1969 book The Tetradrachms of Roman Egypt is annotated with handwritten additional entries and even some cut-out photos pasted into the end-papers, looking sort of like the Schaefer clippings. Unfortunately, there's no name on the book and I've always wondered whose copy it might have been.

In any event, thank you again. It's good to see you here, by the way. You should visit more often!

[Curtisimo]

36 minutes ago, I_v_a_n said:

I'm sorry for my impudence to enter into this thread with my offtopic, but may be here I also can find a help with M&M Basel list No. 380 (August 1976), coin No. 23? I'm also looking for provenance proof which is known only from auction description without old bags / tickets or other confirmation. Thank you in advance!

I believe I have that one. I’m away from my library but I’ll check when I get home. 

[I_v_a_n]

16 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

Oh, too bad -- that's one of my gaps among the later lists. I have ...353–374 AND 385–387...  but I'm missing 375-384. Hopefully someone else will notice and be able to share.

I know which coin you mean, though, from its recent sale. Great portrait of Nero and Colossus! I'm interested in these types -- seems like they would confirm that Nero's Colossus had the radiate crown during his lifetime (refuting the idea that it was only added later in the Flavian era)?

Also, I wonder if it would be in Banti & Simonetti's Corpus Nummorum Romanorum? It would be one of the last volumes (not sure which), published c. 1978 or 1979, so there would be time for them to have included the 1976 M&M sale. (I don't have the CNR volumes, but they're meant to be pretty comprehensive of known specimens. I just found my new Nero/Agrippina Drachm from Caesarea in their vol XVI, no 73.)

Thank you, @Curtis JJ!

I was lucky to purchase 3 coins from recent AMS auctions including this absolutely incredible Nero's aureus in hands (recieved already), but absolutelly unsuccesfull with confirmation of provenances of these coins from Frankfurter 1969, KPM Mannheim 1976 and this Nero's aureus from M&M. I'm browsing trought rnumis database for a months already but still unlucky with provenances also unlucky with ex-numis but still not lose a hope 😀 

[I_v_a_n]

2 minutes ago, Curtisimo said:

I believe I have that one. I’m away from my library but I’ll check when I get home. 

Just WOW! Thank you @Curtisimo!!!

[Curtis JJ]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

Entirely separately, do you happen to have any examples of James W. Curtis's handwriting? ...

I'm going to send you an email about this. I don't have a Col. J. Curtis writing sample but I know who does.

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

Regarding SITNAM, I've never been to that website, but what exactly does it allow one to do? [...]

SITNAM: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/
Search: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/search/

There are probably researchers who have other ways to use it (and could explain it better!). I think the search/browse options may still be evolving (and more data is added periodically), but I usually search by type (Crawford #). (For provenance, I usually start with the Raw and Processed Binders linked on the ANS-Authorities page, since not everything is on SITNAM yet.)

An important part of SITNAM is that it sorts by control symbol (and die). So, if you find your coin, or a similar one, you can then find others with the same control symbol (and/or dies).

Alice Sharpless had an ANS “Pocket Change” blog about SITNAM & Schaefer’s classification. Especially re: the “ODEC (One Die for Every Control-mark)” types:

“…an especially important subset of issues because many actually have sequential numerical control marks, which allow us to test methods of die quantification, as has been discussed in previous blog posts. Not all issues use numerical control marks, but these issues can, nevertheless, still offer hints to die quantification and offer insight into the organization of the mint by showing the various control marks systems that were utilized.” 

For some coins (eventually I think it will be all) you can search by dies and control symbols. For the rest, the search results are just ordered by matching symbols. Here's an example of one you can search by obv. die (linked in the Sharpless blog above with other exs.):

Or this obverse die for which all 3 known specimens seem to be plated (“fourrées”):

Here’s an example of searching for one of my coin types (and finding the coin in SITNAM):

CENSORI Denarius (88 BCE) with galloping horse and an interesting “serpent-entwined rod” control symbol in exergue, “CX” above horse. (C. Marcius Censorinus was one of the last men standing in Sulla’s Civil War. Until Sulla cut his head off and sent it back to Marius the Younger, who committed suicide shortly.)

 

I start on the search page & choose “Crawford 346/2b” from the “Coin Type” dropdown menu (“Select option from list…”): https://numismatics.org/sitnam/search

There are 359 results on 18 pages! Examples of my control symbol are on Page 13 (coincidentally, 13 exs.): https://numismatics.org/sitnam/results?q=coinType_facet%3A%22RRC%20346%2F2b%22&start=240  

 

I click on mine, “LONG ISLAND NOV 10.”

 

Unfortunately, it’s one of the ones for which they don’t know/remember exactly what the source was (“Private or internet sale?”), though I have some theories.

These coins also appear on the ANS’ site, “Coinage of the Roman Republic Online,” a general Republican coinage reference organized by Crawford Nos.: https://crro.numismatics.org/

So, this coin is on CRRO's 6^th p. of 346/2b examples: https://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-346.2b?page=6#examples. (The SITNAM site only includes the Schaefer examples, which are being analyzed by die, whereas CRRO includes mostly museum specimens. The CRRO results are organized by type & collection; they're NOT sorted by control symbol or dies, the way SITNAM & Schaefer's “Processed Binders” are, but may have links to others of the same dies on occasion.)

From the CRRO results, the link (“Long Island Nov 10”) leads back to the coin’s SITNAM entry, above (just like the museum specimens lead back to each museum's website).

Edited December 17, 2023 by Curtis JJ

[DonnaML]

5 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

I'm going to send you an email about this. I don't have a Col. J. Curtis writing sample but I know who does.

SITNAM: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/
Search: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/search/

There are probably researchers who have other ways to use it, and I think the search/browse options may still be evolving and more data is added periodically, but I usually search by type (Crawford #). (For provenance, though, I usually rely more on the Raw and Processed Binders linked on the ANS-Authorities page.)

An important part of SITNAM is that it sorts by control symbol (and die). So, if you find your coin, or a similar one, you can then find others with the same control symbol (and/or dies).

Alice Sharpless had an ANS “Pocket Change” blog about SITNAM & Schaefer’s classification. Especially re: the “ODEC (One Die for Every Control-mark)” types:

“…an especially important subset of issues because many actually have sequential numerical control marks, which allow us to test methods of die quantification, as has been discussed in previous blog posts. Not all issues use numerical control marks, but these issues can, nevertheless, still offer hints to die quantification and offer insight into the organization of the mint by showing the various control marks systems that were utilized.” 

For some coins (eventually I think it will be all) you can search by dies and control symbols. Example:

Or this obverse die for which all 3 known specimens seem to be plated (“fourrées”):

Here’s an example of searching for one of my coin types (and finding the coin in SITNAM):

CENSORI Denarius (88 BCE) with galloping horse and an interesting “serpent-entwined rod” control symbol in exergue, “CX” above horse. (C. Marcius Censorinus was one of the last men standing in Sulla’s Civil War. Until Sulla cut his head off and sent it back to Marius the Younger, who committed suicide shortly.)

 

I start on the search page & choose “Crawford 346/2b” from the “Coin Type” dropdown menu (“Select option from list…”): https://numismatics.org/sitnam/search

There are 359 results on 18 pages! Examples of my control symbol are on Page 13: https://numismatics.org/sitnam/results?q=coinType_facet%3A%22RRC%20346%2F2b%22&start=240  

 

I click on mine, “LONG ISLAND NOV 10.”

 

Unfortunately, it’s one of the ones for which they don’t know/remember exactly what the source was (“Private or internet sale?”), though I have some theories.

These coins also appear on the ANS’ site, “Coinage of the Roman Republic Online,” a general Republican coinage reference organized by Crawford Nos.: https://crro.numismatics.org/

So, this coin is on CRRO's 6^th p. of 346/2b examples: https://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-346.2b?page=6#examples. (The SITNAM site only includes the Schaefer examples, which are being analyzed by die, whereas CRRO includes mostly museum specimens. The CRRO results are organized by type & collection; they're NOT sorted by control symbol or dies, the way SITNAM & Schaefer's “Processed Binders” are, but may have links to others of the same dies on occasion.)

From the CRRO results, the link (“Long Island Nov 10”) leads back to the coin’s SITNAM entry, above (just like the museum specimens lead back to each museum's website).

Thanks! I will try SITNAM the next time I research one of my Roman Republican coins, instead of what I've been doing, which is to find the Schaefer page(s) for a particular Crawford number (either in the binders or in the "processed clippings") -- and I've found a number of Crawford numbers that are absent from the index but are in fact there when one actually looks -- and then scroll through each page looking for matches. Obviously it's easier when one can narrow things down by a control symbol or number. I've ended up finding new pedigrees for only a couple of my coins that way (most recently the 1995 Mario Ratto pedigree I mentioned in my initial post in this thread, for my Mn. Aquillius denarius). I admit that I don't always bother looking anymore. It can be an extremely time-consuming process, usually with no result. And my patience for staring at endless little black and white photos is limited! So I'll have to see if SITNAM is any faster. 

I usually ignore the museum and ANS specimens and photos listed on CRRO itself, since they're not useful in looking for pedigrees.  Especially because some of them are categorized under incorrect Crawford subtypes.  Of course, the OCRE museum photos are far worse, with far more of them miscategorized, because there's been no updating of the categorization to reflect the numbering in any of the revised RIC volumes.

I don't know if you have my email address, but you can always just send me a private message here if you want to get in touch.

Thanks again.

[DonnaML]

@Curtis JJ, it appears that the "Moreira Collection" name was a fake name invented by Superior (presumably by its owners, the Goldbergs) to encompass the contributions of multiple consignors to the three "Moreira Collection" auctions that took place from mid-1988 through early 1989 -- collectively including more than 9,000 high-end ancient, world, and U.S. coins, sold for a total of more than $7 million, a pretty high amount for more than 30 years ago. Even apart from the unlikelihood of any one collector having put together such a massive collection ranging from ancient gold to Russian gold medals to US gold and everything in between while staying completely anonymous, the Superior correspondence file underlying Part III of the sale (the U.S. coins), available at the NNP, includes correspondence with different consignors Including (for example) one consignor, a Bernard Edison of St. Louis, who consigned exactly 18 of the 5,000+ coins in that session, as well as a number of coins in Superior's contemporaneous "Jack Robinson Collection" auction (also clearly a fake name). Note that he's listed as Consignor No. 43 in the Moreira Collection sale. So I'm afraid that the "Moreira Collection" pedigree for my L. Caecianus denarius is a dead end, unless and until someone comes across an earlier old auction photo of the coin by accident. Too bad that Superior didn't give its correspondence with all of its consignors to the Washington U. of St. Louis!

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by DonnaML

[Curtisimo]

4 hours ago, I_v_a_n said:

Just WOW! Thank you @Curtisimo!!!

What a beautiful coin @I_v_a_n. See below for the relevant pages.

 

[Broucheion]

5 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Entirely separately, do you happen to have any examples of James W. Curtis's handwriting?

Hi @DonnaML and @Curtis JJ,

Here is a Curtis coin with his holder.

 

CONSTANTIUS CHLORUS CEASAR (Under MAXIMIANUS 293 - 305 CE)
ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT (OFFICINA A), Year 01 (292/293 CE)
Bi Tetradrachm
Brouchion Collection

Obv: Constantius laureate bust facing right. Legend starting in lower left field: [ΦΛ]AKωCTANTI[OCK]. Dotted border.
Rev: Alexandria standing, facing left, head of Serapis in her right hand, long vertical scepter in left. In left field: L; in right field: B. Below: officina A. Dotted border.
Refs: Emmett-4169.01; G-3347 var: Officina Δ; DAT-6049 (Not DAT-6033 as Curtis holder shows); M-5089; C-2115 (THIS COIN); BMC-2603 var: No officina; Bern-0410 var: Legend KWNCTANTIOC; Mionnet 3806 var: var: Legend KWNCTANTIOC
Provenance: ex Keith Emmett Collection; Ex Olympus, October 1982; Ex Bajocc, #56492, December 1955; Ex-Curtis Collection, with his holder. See https://www.beastcoins.com/Collections/KeithEmmettEgypt/KeithEmmettRomanEgypt.htm [last verified 2023-12-17]. Beast Coins image.

- Broucheion

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Broucheion

[Curtisimo]

A lot of Curtises in this thread…