Have you seen this Hoard appearing on V coins?

[NewStyleKing]

Moved this item here from an inappropriate mention on another post, sorry but I think it's important.

 

On V coins, a dealer with links to the east has a load of Seleucid tetradrachms that all have the same patina for sale. A fresh hoard with a couple of new variations too in Demetrios l   with new monograms !  And look at the other coins that share the same patina. Seleucus lV ,Antiochus lll , Demetrios l, Alexander Balas,  Euthydemos of Bactria,  Antiochus lV Epiphanes,  Antiochus ll , Antiochos l, Several Eastern Macedonia Alexanders, Lysimachos , Pamphylia Aspendos.  "Z" has an interesting group  if indeed they do come from the same  ho ard as they look to me! It would be an interesting article for an expert. on the range of coins circulating at the time of Balas. Alexander imitations with Bactrian and Lysimachi and Pamphylian!

 

Any experts out there  want to pull an oar?

[John Conduitt]

Is the patina definitely real?

Edited July 3, 2022 by John Conduitt

[NewStyleKing]

That I did wonder about? I don't know, but "Z" is infamous for his "sandy patina" AE's.  An interesting thing is the Bactrian coin. I do wish some coin dealers werny so dodgy, in a dodgy trade!

[Kamnaskires]

10 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

tetradrachms that all have the same patina for sale

With due respect, since the coins are AR tets, the issue is tone - not patina.

 

I have noted the new coins as well - and their similar-looking surfaces. I do wonder how much of that is due to the photography. Hard to know without seeing the coins in person.

 

Interestingly, a very, very rare tetradrachm from Elymais, an issue of Kamnaskires II Nikephoros, was included in the same group this week. These hardly ever come to market and, not surprisingly, it didn't last long. Was sold within a day. (I probably should have snagged it while I had the chance, dammit!) Another Elymaean tet - a more common Kamnaskires III and Anzaze - is also among Z's new group of mostly Seleukids.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

The photography of my crystallized Hadrian was pretty close to reality, in terms of tone.

I noticed those coins before, having a soft spot for Seleucid Tets. I'm no super-expert, but wouldn't the 220s-150s B.C. be unusual for a hoard, and wouldn't the earliest ones be much more worn then they are?  The Demetrius ones also had some wear.

[DonnaML]

Those photos are pretty awful -- blurry when enlarged, and all too dark in exactly the same way except for the shiny spot in the same location on the obverses. I'd never rely on them to buy a coin.

[NewStyleKing]

He's added some more  Antiochos  V .Now if somebody knows him and have dealt in coins with him, could they ask the question about same TONE  and are they all related...ie a Hoard.

You see the coins are real I dont give a monkeys about fake sand patina etc  or   so and so's collections and other provenance nonsense....IT's THE COINS! Hoards etc, what things can tell us. The rest is a beauty pageant !  I mean In have some coins from collections, the most famous from the SELDON collection. Theses multimillionaire bankers  hoovered up  top quality rare coins but only so they could show them off, to their society friends, who no doubt had to be propped up as they began to glaze over with boredom!  My NewStyle, Artemis and Demeter, well I have no idea where they bought it from who, why or how. Cos they couldn't be bothered to say. Ownership was everything!  Amazing  for such intelligent people.  Same with that Roma sold Gold Aureus. It apparently been sitting in an aristocrats collection barely known for decades . I personally don't buy the story- the worlds most famous ancient coin, sitting there come the communists, come the Nazi's  and still they didn't need to cash it in! B o l l o x !

NSK=John

Edited July 4, 2022 by NewStyleKing

[DonnaML]

Why would he tell the truth?

[NewStyleKing]

Why not, he could indicate without incriminating himself. Read the Gaziantep Hoard, where various dealers, middlemen, scallywags  pop in and offer coins to dealers ( Andrew Meadows on academia.edu.) We all know the truth (Don't we Oscar!) Fresh coins are hawked around  all the time. Years ago Lanz had loads of fresh NewStyles, but they have dried up .  Someone knows the fresh coin trade and could be honest, maybe some dealers, middlemen on here could tell it how it is!  It is o0nly through mixed hoards that numismatics can thrive!  That's what floats my boat!

regards, Donna ML

NSK=John

[Celator]

I see groups like these come and go, perhaps more will come to market. I noticed most come from 3 mints, Antioch on the Orontes, Seleucia on the Tigris, and a somewhat obscure Antioch on the "Persian Gulf". I haven't looked and the controls, but seem a group of common types with a few scarcer ones.

[NewStyleKing]

2 hours ago, Celator said:

I see groups like these come and go, perhaps more will come to market. I noticed most come from 3 mints, Antioch on the Orontes, Seleucia on the Tigris, and a somewhat obscure Antioch on the "Persian Gulf". I haven't looked and the controls, but seem a group of common types with a few scarcer ones.

If they are all from the same hoard, what do you think are the oddities, the outliers, the interesting ones? The Alexanders, the lysimachos the Bactrian? The ending with Balas? The return of Demetrios ll seems to be the cause. I guess the hoarder took anything tetradramy, until thing 

[Kaleun96]

It's not only fake sand patina you have to worry about with Zurqieh, they've posted some bad fakes in the past and I saw this one yesterday. I emailed them and after a bit of back-and-forth I got them to take it down, though only after they consulted with their expert. Turns out they "cleaned" it pretty poorly, making the surfaces look even worse and seemingly introducing a lot of cleaning scratches. That would explain why all their Seleucid tetradrachms have horrible surfaces from harsh cleaning. Note also how the listing photo hides the big gouge in the obverse edge that is clearly visible in their "uncleaned" photos.

To their credit, they did take down the listing but they exercised less caution than many of us would given the facts I initially presented them with:

Quote

 

As for it being fake, let's look at what we know:

- Price 3730 has one example in PELLA of quite different style (particularly in the throne legs, throne back, and footstool).

- Price 3730 has one example in ACSearch (another is a misattribution)

- This is supposedly a variation of Price 3730, of which the only example in ACSearch is labelled as a modern forgery.

- The modern forgery appears to be a double-die match with your coin

- The edges of the coin look quite "sharp" and abrupt, often something you see in fake Alexander tetradrachms (e.g. those on forgerynetwork).

 

Here are some more examples of this same fake:

- Die match, I think
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=c12MFzji2uc=

- Not die matches but very similar reverse styles

http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=mENsw12Q51U=
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=Xb3OI35yP9Q=

http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=9C/nMOUAHPM=

 

So the only known examples of this "variation" of Price 3730 are known forgeries. I don't think the coin can be sold in good faith knowing this.

 

And the pre-cleaned photos:

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Kaleun96