A very challenging coin to attribute (update: solved!) (another update: really solved!)

[kirispupis]

For some weeks I watched this coin, then decided to pick it up. As far as I can tell, it's rare since I haven't found anything close.

(Update: this is a coin of Halieis. See the details below)

size: 13mm, weight: 2.00g

I've honestly gone all over the place. It's obviously Greek, but is it 4th-3rd century? Is it 2nd-1st century? Or is it a much later provincial?

The following are what I think I know.

First, the dots around the edge are interesting. That's more indicative of a 2nd-1st century BCE coin, especially from Asia Minor. That being said, there were exceptions.

On to the obverse. I'm not quite sure here. The seller labeled it as a "female head, right is sphendone". I'm certainly not an expert in ancient Greek women's hairstyles, but the images of other sphendones didn't seem the best match. It looks a bit more like a stephane. The portrait does seem to resemble my Sabina.

Sabina
3.43g, 17mm 133-135 CE
Head of Sabina right "SABINA AVGVSTA"
Juno veiled standing left, holding a patera and scepter "IVNONI REGINAE"
RSC 43

 

So, I honestly don't know. Is this a Greek nymph (doesn't seem to match Aphrodite, Artemis, Athena, or Demeter) or is it a Roman empress?

Moving onto the reverse, we have an inscription! Clearly the part to the left of the plant is ΠΥ. That looks pretty obvious. There's also definitely something to the left. But what is it? The seller surmised it was a Δ, but I find no evidence for that. From the seller's photo, I thought it was an Ω, but reserved my judgment for having the coin in hand. Now that I do have it in hand, I'm quite sure it's not any letter, but is some symbol. When I look at the photo, it may be an eagle. I'm really not sure.

So, given the first two letters, we should be able to narrow down the city, right? Well, not really. The seller thought this may be Pydna (because of the Δ), but that makes no sense. For reference, here are the main issues of Pydna.

Macedon, Pydna
369-364 BCE
Æ 15mm 3,62g
OBV: Head of Artemis r.
REV: ΠΥΔΝ ΑΙΩΝ Owl standing r., head facing, on grain ear.
SNG ANS 701 var. (Artemis and owl l.); SNG Copenhagen -; BMC 4-5

 

Macedon, Pydna
369-364 BCE
Æ 15mm 3,62g
OBV: Head of Artemis r.
REV: ΠΥΔΝ ΑΙΩΝ Owl standing r., head facing, on grain ear.
SNG ANS 701 var. (Artemis and owl l.); SNG Copenhagen -; BMC 4-5

 

They have little to do with each other. Pydna also didn't abbreviate their city on any of their coins, but wrote ΠYΔNAIΩN. Another city that did use this abbreviation was Byzantion.

Thrace, Byzantion
AR Siglos 340-320 BCE
5.24g
Bull standing left on a dolphin, monogram of Byzantion above. Incuse wind-sail pattern.
SNG Cop 475-477

 

Byzantion did mint some bronze coinage, though I don't have an example - just the silver above. Still, there's no resemblance. One other possibility is Pyrrha. Here's my coin from there.

Lesbos. Pyrrha
circa 400-300 BCE
Bronze Æ 10 mm, 1,12 g
Obv: Female head left, wearing sphendone.
Rev: ΠΥΡ.
Filleted goat standing left.
SNG Copenhagen 428.

As you can see, they used ΠΥΡ to denote their city and the types are also very different.

The following are some other possibilities I've considered.

Pylos (Peloponnese) - They did mint coins during Roman times, but never abbreviated their city (ΠYΛIΩN). The types also don't match at all.

Pionai (Mysia) - This is a stretch since the spelling is different. No coins are known and this is just wishful thinking.

Pyrnos (Caria) - Again, I could find no history of coinage. This piqued my interest because Pyrnos is not far from Idyma, which has the most similar coin I've found.

Caria. Idyma circa 350-300 BCE
Æ 10 mm, 0,77 g
Female head to right, her hair bound in sphendone.
Rev. ΙΔΥ/ΜΙΟΝ Fig leaf
Karl 161. SNG Copenhagen 420. SNG Keckman I 63

 

Yeah, I know. I'm pulling straws here. I'm spent I don't know how many hours, but I haven't made any progress in figuring this one out. Therefore, I'd very much appreciate the help, since I'm still extremely new at the attribution game...

Please help me. I'm obsessive compulsive by nature and have difficulties leaving something unfinished. I know there's some answer out there, but this is gnawing at me.

Edited November 7, 2023 by kirispupis

[CPK]

That's a tough one! Hopefully someone here can help you crack the nut. I also hate the feeling of defeat when it comes to proper attribution.

[Deinomenid]

It looks very much like the Tyre coins of Tyche with a veiled/turreted head and palm frond.

Right weight and size. There are a few versions of  it. I know you say the letters are obvious  but  could  it not be read TY?

 

This sort of thing -

 

 

[Deinomenid]

There are a number of really quite similar coins in BMC  Phoenicia/Hill.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Deinomenid
added pic

[Sulla80]

1 hour ago, kirispupis said:

For some weeks I watched this coin, then decided to pick it up. As far as I can tell, it's rare since I haven't found anything close.

size: 13mm, weight: 2.00g

I've honestly gone all over the place. It's obviously Greek, but is it 4th-3rd century? Is it 2nd-1st century? Or is it a much later provincial?

The following are what I think I know.

First, the dots around the edge are interesting. That's more indicative of a 2nd-1st century BCE coin, especially from Asia Minor. That being said, there were exceptions.

On to the obverse. I'm not quite sure here. The seller labeled it as a "female head, right is sphendone". I'm certainly not an expert in ancient Greek women's hairstyles, but the images of other sphendones didn't seem the best match. It looks a bit more like a stephane. [skip]

Please help me. I'm obsessive compulsive by nature and have difficulties leaving something unfinished. I know there's some answer out there, but this is gnawing at me.

Your right - that one is tough.  I am leaning something like Tyre, Phoenicia....

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=573410

PHOENICIA, Tyre. Late 2nd-1st centuries BC. Æ 13mm (1.72 g, 12h). Dated CY 375 (126/5 BC). Laureate head of Melqart right / Palm tree; TO/E to right. BMC 251 var. (date); SNG Copenhagen -; Klein 729 (this coin). VF, dark green patina.
From the D. Alighieri Collection.

 

Edit: agree with @Deinomenid!

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sulla80

[kirispupis]

36 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

It looks very much like the Tyre coins of Tyche with a veiled/turreted head and palm frond.

Right weight and size. There are a few versions of  it. I know you say the letters are obvious  but  could  it not be read TY?

Thanks! I just looked at it with the magnifying glass again, and it certainly looks like a ΠΥ. I can't rule it out 100% because maybe there's some smudge or nick there, but it certainly doesn't look like a TY.

I agree that Tyre is a possibility. The one thing is all of the examples I see with female heads are turreted (tyche). In my coin's case, I don't see any sign of a turret. It appears to be a stephane.

I do think that Tyre is the closest match so far, but there are still some discrepancies.

[kirispupis]

Update - researching further, the Seleukid/Tyre prospect is interesting. I still haven't found any obverses that match, but perhaps the ΠΥ could be a date? I'm seeing coins with very similar reverses such as this one. Trying to figure out how the Seleukids dated their coins now...

[kirispupis]

So, keep in mind I'm learning while I'm reading, but if this is a date, then ΠΥ per this page would calculate to 480. Now, per this page the Seleukid era started at 312 BCE. It was used on coinage until the 3rd century CE. Therefore, if my reading is correct, then this coin would be dated as 168 CE. 

Again, from some research in a subject extremely far from the limited expertise I have, Tyre did mint provincials during the time of Marcus Aurelius, though they're rare. Here's one. Of course, that one isn't dated.

Actually, I just found this coin which alludes that Tyre dated their coins differently than Sidon. It seems like they dated from 126 BCE. That would make this coin 354 CE, which doesn't make sense.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

[Sulla80]

8 hours ago, kirispupis said:

So, keep in mind I'm learning while I'm reading, but if this is a date, then ΠΥ per this page would calculate to 480. Now, per this page the Seleukid era started at 312 BCE. It was used on coinage until the 3rd century CE. Therefore, if my reading is correct, then this coin would be dated as 168 CE. 

Again, from some research in a subject extremely far from the limited expertise I have, Tyre did mint provincials during the time of Marcus Aurelius, though they're rare. Here's one. Of course, that one isn't dated.

Actually, I just found this coin which alludes that Tyre dated their coins differently than Sidon. It seems like they dated from 126 BCE. That would make this coin 354 CE, which doesn't make sense.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

@kirispupis I don't think you are missing anything, just not an easy on to figure out.  You might try searching Coryssa from @rasiel [https://www.coryssa.org/index.php] which gives you some ability to control weights and other parameters.

 

What do you know about the origins of your coin?  perhaps a fantasy coin?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sulla80

[kirispupis]

7 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

What do you know about the origins of your coin?  perhaps a fantasy coin?

I believe it's a genuine coin. I purchased it from Romae Aeternae on VCoins. Their prices are often too high, but they have a knack for finding interesting coins. AFAICT everything they offer is genuine. It came with no prior provenance, which is typical.

I've reached a bit of a conundrum regarding the date. It certainly looks like ΠΥ, which would equal 480. That's way beyond when they minted these coins. I found this article about dating Tyre Shekels, which should use the date format, being the same city. What's interesting is

• Dates before 72 where written right to left
• Dates after 86 were written left to right
• Between 72 and 86 both examples are found

Since ΠΥ is 80+400, which would be right to left, that further invalidates the date, since 480 is way past 86.

Therefore, one of the following must be true.

• This is not ΠΥ. Note that TY also fails, because that's 380, which is also right-to-left. If this is still a date, then the Π could be valid, but the Y would have to be a single digit. However, none of the nine candidates looks anything like what's on the coin. It's either a Y or a V.
• ΠΥ is not denoting a date. It's either a magistrate or a city name. It doesn't matter that the type certainly resembles Tyre. It's from somewhere else. Supporting this point is the obverse matches no known coin of Tyre and I could not find any example with two branches per side of the palm. They all have three or (rarely) more.

Another interesting observation: the vast majority of ae Tyre examples I see have three fronds on each side of the palm. For Carthage, the vast majority have four fronds. I suspect this wasn't accidental, but meant something. Maybe the daughter city adds a frond from the parent city? In that case, would Byblos have two fronds? Of course, Byblos isn't spelled with a ΠΥ but is ΒΎΒΛΟΣ. But Byzantion is spelled ΒΥΖΆΝΤΙΟΝ, but on their coins is ΠΥ. Then again, I found no Byblos examples anywhere close to this, nor even anything with a ΠΥ. During Roman times it seems to have been ΒΥΒΛΟΥ. I'm pretty sure it was always spelled with a B, since otherwise we'd say "I read a pook" and "find comfort in the Pible".

[kirispupis]

Just another update that doesn't get that far.

I found this interesting paper - https://www.academia.edu/1752944/BEYOND_GREECE_AND_ROME_FOUNDATION_MYTHS_ON_TYRIAN_COINAGE_IN_THE_THIRD_CENTURY_AD

It divides the Roman coinage of Tyre into four period. Of note is that starting with Septimius Severus (period 2), the legends were in Latin. Therefore, if this coin is from Tyre, then ΠΥ is not a date.

Also, Tyre's bronze coinage depicted either Tyche or the current emperor. This coin depicts neither.

[kirispupis]

So, I have an idea though I admit it's a longshot. Could this be an early coin from Caesarea?

Caesarea has had several names, but it began as Stratonos Pyrgos or "Straton's Tower". I've gone through this paper from Stieglitz and this one from Roller in the investigation.

To start with, the following is what my investigation, along with the help of several others here, have uncovered.

• The coin strongly resembles the types of Tyre. The palm tree, size, dotted border, and placement of the inscription are all indicative of Tyre.
• However, for that to be the case, ΠΥ would have to be a date. As I've outlined above, there's no way this can be.

There is some precedent for cities being referred to as Pyrgos, and obviously that would have to be the case for this one. It's the best match I could find in my Barrington's Atlas in terms of cities not far from Tyre. Per Stieglitz's paper, it was an important city in the 2nd century BCE.

The following is a rough timeline for Caesarea/Stratonos Pyrgos.

275 BCE - city founded
259 BCE - earliest epigraphic evidence
103 BCE - captured by Hasmoneans and renamed to Migdal Sar
92 BCE - major earthquake + tsunami
63 BCE - detached by Pompey from Hasmoneans. Uncertain if anything was rebuilt.
30 BCE - city in ruins. Rebuilt and renamed by Herod

Roller's paper notes several coin finds, though I couldn't find any more specifics about the coins other than that they date to the 2nd century BCE, and the oldest is from 175-162 BCE, being the oldest found near Caesarea. It happens that the closest-matching Tyre types also date from this time, so a date of 2nd century BCE would seem to be appropriate.

In terms of the obverse, according to Stieglitz, no Hellenistic temples have yet been dug up. The city is known to have worshipped Isis, but the obverse is not a great match there. Perhaps Astarte? She was known to be on the obverse of Phoenician coins such as this one, and the obverse could be described as her (though there are many other possibilities).

I know this is a stretch, but it does make some sense, or at least the most sense of any other possibiltiies.

Thoughts?

[Sulla80]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:15 PM, kirispupis said:

Just another update that doesn't get that far.

I found this interesting paper - https://www.academia.edu/1752944/BEYOND_GREECE_AND_ROME_FOUNDATION_MYTHS_ON_TYRIAN_COINAGE_IN_THE_THIRD_CENTURY_AD

It divides the Roman coinage of Tyre into four period. Of note is that starting with Septimius Severus (period 2), the legends were in Latin. Therefore, if this coin is from Tyre, then ΠΥ is not a date.

Also, Tyre's bronze coinage depicted either Tyche or the current emperor. This coin depicts neither.

Hi @kirispupis I'm stumped by this coin.  I've been trying to come up with other possibilities: perhaps this is a mismatched die set - obverse and reverse not normally seen together? or badly tooled?  is it really a female portrait - if you rotate it a bit I cam almost see an Eagle? or perhaps a galley? Maybe not ancient?  some medieval coin that looks like an ancient coin? grasping at straws....stumped by the portrait, stumped by the PY, stumped by the style of the Palm tree.....

 

 

[kirispupis]

11 minutes ago, Sulla80 said:

Hi @kirispupis I'm stumped by this coin.  I've been trying to come up with other possibilities: perhaps this is a mismatched die set - obverse and reverse not normally seen together? or badly tooled?  is it really a female portrait - if you rotate it a bit I cam almost see an Eagle? or perhaps a galley? Maybe not ancient?  some medieval coin that looks like an ancient coin? grasping at straws....stumped by the portrait, stumped by the PY, stumped by the style of the Palm tree.....

I'm just as stumped here, but it's a fun journey. The following are things I learned from researching these coins.

• How to read Greek dates
• The fact that they reversed the order of the letters in the date around 86
• How many different start dates there were across the Greek world
• The history of Caesarea
• Subtleties of the Tyre palm coinage
• Improved my ancient geography from poring over ancient maps

I'm certainly hoping that this journey ends with an attribution, but it's been entertaining at least. I hope I'm not boring others here with my continuous theories. 🙂

[Sulla80]

Here's another dead end for you - chalkous - close to the right weight, palm tree (too many leaves), no Π Y - but maybe I could imagine a TI could look like a Π and ΠP could look like ΠY?

Halieis The coinage of the Tirynthians at Halieis, end 5th Century BC

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2560155

 

 

[kirispupis]

11 minutes ago, Sulla80 said:

Here's another dead end for you - chalkous - close to the right weight, palm tree (too many leaves), no Π Y - but maybe I could imagine a TI could look like a Π and ΠP could look like ΠY?

Halieis The coinage of the Tirynthians at Halieis, end 5th Century BC

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2560155

Thanks! I must admit I'd be extremely excited for this to be Halieis, since it's a major target and I lost on my last attempt to procure one.

I can see the TI being mistaken for a Π and perhaps the P is missing? Of course, all the coins I've seen from Halieis depict Apollo.

I've also had a few other ideas, but nothing noteworthy. I've pretty much given up on Stratonos Pyrgos due to the lack of any mention of coins from this time.

[kirispupis]

I believe this has been solved! Credit @Sulla80for the goal and myself as the VAR official who initially disallowed it.

This coin from CNG was what sealed it for me - https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=392408

For reference, here is my coin again.

I now believe the inscription is ITY. 

In terms of the obverse, this is apparently Apollo per other attributions. This coin shares a similar portrait.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=376825

That being said, I do believe the coins of Halieis need more investigation, because neither of these looks like Apollo. 

In terms of the missing 'P', it appears from other examples they weren't the best spellers.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=296445

As to what's to the right of the palm, based on other coins, the choices are:

• a seashell
• a bunch of grapes
• the letter P

I'm going to go with "a bunch of grapes", similar to this one.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=296443

As I mentioned earlier, Halieis was a major target for me because it essentially was ancient Tiryns, which I made a trip to during my travels in Greece. It was a very pleasant experience - the exact opposite of Mycenaea where there were tons of pushy and rude people. At Tiryns, there were only about 5-6 others visiting at the same time.

Here are some photos I took there.

Thank you again everyone for the help!

[Celator]

Do any examples have the very prominent dotter border that is exhibited on both sides of your coin?

[kirispupis]

9 minutes ago, Celator said:

Do any examples have the very prominent dotter border that is exhibited on both sides of your coin?

The last example appears to have the remains of a dotted border.

[Sulla80]

Great photos @kirispupis, which makes me wish for a trip to Greece one of these days....

I am not confident that your attribution is solved unambiguously.  I'd probably call it "2g AE chalkous maybe Tyre or Halieis and rare enough that I haven't found another example: Obv: Female bust right border of dots/ Rev: Palm Tree, ΠY? to left of tree border of dots" - fun coin, I enjoyed being frustrated by it 🙂

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Sulla80

[kirispupis]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:23 PM, Sulla80 said:

Great photos @kirispupis, which makes me wish for a trip to Greece one of these days....

I am not confident that your attribution is solved unambiguously.  I'd probably call it "2g AE chalkous maybe Tyre or Halieis and rare enough that I haven't found another example: Obv: Female bust right border of dots/ Rev: Palm Tree, ΠY? to left of tree border of dots" - fun coin, I enjoyed being frustrated by it 🙂

 

Okay, so now I think I've really solved it!

I present the coin with the attribution.

Cilicia, Seleukeia ad Kalykadnon
2nd-1st centuries BCE
Æ Chalkous 13mm 2.0g
Female head right /
Reed; ΠΥ left, monogram right
SNG Levante 699 var; SNG von Aulock 5815 var
 

Although I lack the references, the following coins led me to the conclusion.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3290617
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=949087
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=407583
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=407583

These coins share the following characteristics:

• The dotted borders on both sides
• The female head on the obverse is similar
• The reed on the reverse is similar

Only the inscription differs, but it also differs on each of the coins above. Given that evidence, I'm inclined to believe it indicates a magistrate.

[Deinomenid]

Delighted you solved  it! Who do you think it is on the obverse? Acsearch link says  head of Apollo with shouldered quiver and blossom on reverse.  Another says goddess.

[kirispupis]

33 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Delighted you solved  it! Who do you think it is on the obverse? Acsearch link says  head of Apollo with shouldered quiver and blossom on reverse.  Another says goddess.

Three of the listings state "female head" while one states Apollo. Based on own eyes, and on another type that I didn't list here (because it's in a live auction), I believe there were two types.

• The male head is probably Apollo. He featured on some of Seleukeia ad Kalykadnon's other coinage of the era.
• The female (my coin) is more difficult to say. Athena featured heavily on their coinage, but this is definitely not Athena. Artemis would be the logical answer, though she doesn't feature at all on Seleukeia's other coinage or on that of Holmi - from where most of Seleukei's inhabitants came.

That being said, some of Holmi's coinage with Apollo definitely appeared more female, so it could just be Apollo.

Cilicia, Holmoi
c. 375 BCE
AR Obol 10mm 0.68g 6h
Description avers : Tête d’Athéna casquée à droite.
Description revers : Tête diadémée d’Apollon à droite.
Levante34 var - Aulock- - GC.- - SNG France 2/121 var

[Sulla80]

Congrat @kirispupis, amazing detective work and nice to see it solved!  The palm was really a "reed"!