Opinions on a coin that has caused me considerable anguish

[kirispupis]

Hello everyone,

Edited: this coin is not a fake. It has been identified as coming from Nikaia, Bithynia. It most likely comes from the early Roman occupation of Bithynia, but may also be as early as the rule of Lysimachos. I have removed all mentions of it being a fake.

 

AE12mm 1,8g

 

What did I believe it was?

If I'm reading the inscription correctly as NIKAIEΩN then there can only be the following possibilities.

1. Nikaia, Phokis. This city did mint coins, but they bear no resemblance to this type.
2. Nikaia, Gaul. Initially I believed this to be the case due to the reverse's similarity with those of neighboring Massalia. However, I perused the material on Gallic coinage and nothing mentions any coinage from Nikaia (Nice). Ancient sources list Nikaia as a military outpost of Massalia against the Ligurians at this time, and Nikaia itself didn't mint any coins until the 2nd century BCE - compared to the similar Massalia issues of the 2nd half of the 2nd century BCE.
3. Nikaia, Lydia. I'm a bit confused with the ancient sources on this one as ToposText assigns two sources to the city, located in Lydia. It's nowhere near the coast but one mentions Attalos sailing there and another cites a shipwreck. Regardless, this was a very small town and there's no mention of coinage.
4. Nikaia, Illyria. There's not much to go on about this city and this doesn't look at all like an Illyrian coin.
5. Nikaia, Bithynia. This seemed the most likely. The city was renamed to Antigoneia but Antigonos I Monophthalmos, but renamed to Nikaia in honor of his wife by Lysimachos, who held it from roughly 300-280 BCE. That's where I dated this coin, since Nikomedes and his successors seemed to prefer coinage in their own names. The bull is a common motif on coinage from Anatolia to Italy, and Nikaia was associated with Dionysos because myth states it was named after the nymph Nikaia, who was raped by Dionysos.

I therefore attributed it as Nikaia, Bithynia.

Why do I now believe it's fake?

A number of things don't match up. First of all, based on the city's history I would have expected the nymph Nikaia herself. Similarly, if this were Nikaia, Gaul, I'd expect to see Nike - that city's namesake. Sure, Dionysos isn't that far of a stretch since he was worshipped in both cities, but it's still a bit odd.

Even more so is that there's no mention of this coin anywhere. It's not just unpublished. It's unknown. Since both are major cities, that's odd. I've also been unable to find any remote match for the obverse. My best guess is Dionysos, but I don't know of any image of his that matches this one. Dionysos was depicted on later coins of the Kings of Bithynia, but the image was much different.

Kings of Bithynia. Prusias II
AE Unit 20.5mm 6.41g 12h
c. 180-150 BCE
Laffaille430 var. - Cop.- - Aulock6886 var. - RG.26 - BMC.- - HGCS. 7/629
0avers : Buste imberbe, juvénile et drapé de Dionysos (Bacchus) à droite, couronné de feuilles de vigne.
0revers : Le Centaure Chiron à droite, la tête de face, jouant de la lyre, sa tunique flottant derrière.

 

The other member of this forum (feel free to identify yourself if you wish) pointed out the "strange metal structure on the cheek  and how  that slightly  bleeds  outside the  profile at around 5 o'clock and the  gap in the  lower of the  2 exergue lines on the reverse".

I would very much appreciate your opinions on the coin, which has caused me more anguish and anxiety than any other. I am very much indebted to any opinions.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by kirispupis

[Ryro]

Hmmm, It sure doesn't look fake to me. Whatever the coin is, it appears to be ancient and to have suffered from BD at some point (hence the erosion around it and the nastiness on the cheek). I think him curing the bronze disease is what he meant by restored.

Other than it being rare, possibly unlisted, (though I think I've seen the type before) and having been cured of bronze disease, are there any concrete reasons for you to think it's fake?

[John Conduitt]

It's difficult to say something's fake when the alternative is that it's unique. We're back with Sponsian again.

The style of the writing over the bull looks a lot like Phaistos staters, of which there are fakes around. But the bull doesn't. What's going on with its left back leg? It comes very far forward when usually the back legs are rooted solid to the ground.

[kirispupis]

16 minutes ago, Ryro said:

Hmmm, It sure doesn't look fake to me. Whatever the coin is, it appears to be ancient and to have suffered from BD at some point (hence the erosion around it and the nastiness on the cheek). I think him curing the bronze disease is what he meant by restored.

Other than it being rare, possibly unlisted, (though I think I've seen the type before) and having been cured of bronze disease, are there any concrete reasons for you to think it's fake?

Thanks @Ryro. Per your comments, I've updated the title to be more neutral.

If I could find some similar type, I would certainly keep it. Heck, even some example of a similar obverse would give me hope.

The main argument for it being fake is it doesn't seem to fully make sense. Trust me when I say I want this to be real because it would be a major pickup. I'm just very nervous that the two primary candidates for this type are very well-known archeological sites and this type - which would be the earliest issue for either city - is completely unknown.

[Ryro]

It is a very perplexing coin, and despite my memory, I still cannot find another example. I've been wrong about coins authenticity before and may be here. But do love a good mystery!

I think you are spot on about it being a ivy haired Dionysos, unless it's a nymph(?). Here's a pretty fun countermarked AE Dionysos of mine from

MOESIA. Kallatis. 3rd-2nd centuries BC. Tetrachalkon (Bronze, 21 mm, 7 g), Poly..., magistrate. Head of Dionysos right, wearing wreath of ivy; on neck, countermark: head of Artemis to right, with bow and quiver over her shoulder. Rev. ΠΟ/ΛY within wreath; above, KAΛΛA. AMNG I 221.

And to expand on my BD hypothesis here are a couple bronze disease survivors of mine. Note the almost purple color of the affected areas, craters and damage around the rim (much like on your example). The first coin was only minimally damaged around the edges before I have her a bath in ambrosia. The second coin is hard to look at, even harder to see the before pictures;

Edited September 24, 2023 by Ryro

[kirispupis]

20 minutes ago, Ryro said:

It is a very perplexing coin, and despite my memory, I still cannot find another example. I've been wrong about coins authenticity before and may be here. But do love a good mystery!

I think you are spot on about it being a ivy haired Dionysos, unless it's a nymph(?).

The thought that it could be a nymph is intriguing. I've been trying to find images of statues dug up in the ruins of Nikaia, but I haven't had any luck so far. You would think Dionysos and Nikaia (nymph) would have been common Hellenistic subjects. It's a long shot, but perhaps one of them may resemble the obverse?

As an aside, I learned today that there's a 5th century CE poem called Dionysiaca, by Nonnus, and it's the longest extant Greek or Roman poem from antiquity. I ordered a copy for my already lengthy reading list. That's part of the fun with researching these coins - even when I fail to come to a conclusion, I still learn.

If this is a genuine coin, I'll issue an apology to the seller. However, I'd love to hear more opinions and complete more research first to reach a stronger conclusion.

[John Conduitt]

Wouldn’t there need to be a good reason for the obverse not to be Dionysos? I don’t know how else you could tell who it is without the ivy wreath. Although in the event that it isn’t, it doesn’t seem to get you far down the road of new or solid evidence.

The problem then is that you have Dionysos paired with a butting bull. The cities that used one seem not to have used the other. Generally, Dionysos appears on coins from Thrace, Thebes, Lydia and even Bactrea and the Seleukids. The butting bull appears on coins from Thurium, Massalia, Sicily, Chersonesos, Crete, Thessaly, Ionia - and is apparently associated with mercenaries. So is the coin unique in that respect too?

[seth77]

What if the creature on the reverse was supposed to be a boar/sow? Possibly similar, perhaps earlier than this

Edited September 24, 2023 by seth77

[Ed Snible]

Could it be a magistrate?  Münsterberg lists a magistrate Νίκαιος for Pheneos in Arcadia.  That probably isn't right but coins named only to magistrates can be very difficult to attribute.

Here is a coin that stumped me for years:

This turkey (with a 1980 provenance to Clark's Ancients) was attributed to Abdera by some dealer (presumably Mr. Clark).

The only writing on the coin is "ΑΝΔΡΟΝΙΚ" which turns out to be a magistrate.  Another example of this magistrate was sold in 1864 (Rollin et Feuardent, Catalogue d'une collection de médailles des rois et des villes de l'ancienne Grèce (1864), #3160).  I have found no other examples of this magistrate.

I bought this coin in 2004.  I attributed it in 2016.  The correct attribution is Ambrakia, 238-168 BC (?); Cf. SNG Copenhagen 35-37 (magistrate).

If you are wondering about the designs on this coin it is "Zeus head right" and "ΑΝΔΡΟΝΙΚ; Griffin crouching right".

I bought this coin for $13 from Clark's Ancients, list 119, November 2004, lot 302 (James Lovette collection).  Clark's 2004 sales catalog had no pictures, just grades.  If I had seen a photo of this coin I would have passed, but it is one of my favorites today because of the difficulty of its attribution.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Ed Snible

[ajax]

I think it reads NIKAIEΙΩN there's an extra "I' between E and Ω

[Deinomenid]

14 hours ago, kirispupis said:

The other member of this forum

We looked everywhere, including BnF, British Museum, every facing Dionysius listed etc. My worry though was that the coin was off as in altered which the seller - when challenged - finally confirmed.  The problem now is that the moment of minor triumph was brief. We proved the coin was wrong but what’s gnawing at me now is why would he alter or repair a fake.  Unless there’s double bluffing going on, it seems highly unlikely he’d fake then restore (though that’s quite clever if so).

I was/am left wondering if we were looking for the wrong clue as in does the legend really say that or does it mean something else (magistrate idea exactly).

Edited September 24, 2023 by Deinomenid

[Deinomenid]

14 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

usually the back legs are rooted solid to the ground

Adranon,Sicily was the closest I could  find.

 

 

[ambr0zie]

Disclaimer - my skills in spotting forgeries/tooling are very weak. 

I don't like the coin, but this is because 2 specialists investigated it thoroughly and the findings are not OK. And the seller's answer - that it was "professionally restored" makes my personal opinion even worse. 

I searched a little, after checking @seth77's idea, but since I could not find a match I played a little Sherlock ... not "what if the bull should be something else" but "what if the original legend was something else". 

"Professionally restored" unfortunately means sometimes smoothing, but not rarely ... tooling. 

So I am wondering if the coin wasn't, originally, something like this from Massalia 

I repeat, something like this - with a head facing right and a bull butting right with head reverted. 
And it was professionally restored - this means carving a new legend. 

Again, spotting tooling is something I am not an expert in, but after I thought about this theory, the field, especially on the reverse, seems "recessed", like a chisel performed hard work on it. If the coin was very worn originally, carving the surface surrounding the "new letters" wouldn't be a very difficult task for somebody with experience. 

17 hours ago, kirispupis said:

he would only accept the opinion of a "licensed numismatist."

This is the kind of attitude that would make me never buy a coin from a seller. Does the numismatist need to be just licensed? Or does he need to be blue eyed, at least 6'3 tall, zodiacal sign Gemini and he must drive a Mercedes? All the conditions mandatory. 

I remember I had a similar discussion with a modern banknotes seller. I bought a fake. It was not obvious but nevertheless fake. He said he will only accept "a professional's opinion". Guess what, we don't have somebody with a written qualification. After another round of debates, he said I damaged the banknote (not true). In the end I remained with it. But I made sure some of his clients were informed about his attitude. 

I am saying this because sellers with this attitude usually manage to avoid returns and refunds. Hope it will not be the case. If he accepts the refund, send it back to him, make sure it's properly packed and of course undamaged and ignore him from now on, like you intend. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by ambr0zie

[John Conduitt]

2 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

not "what if the bull should be something else" but "what if the original legend was something else". 

This was my thought with Phaistos/ΦAIΣTIΩN. But the letters don't fit well enough for any coins I have seen. Having said that, the letters are oddly spaced on this coin - NIK - AIE - ΩN, with something in front of the Ω that could be an I.

[kirispupis]

5 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

The problem then is that you have Dionysos paired with a butting bull. The cities that used one seem not to have used the other. Generally, Dionysos appears on coins from Thrace, Thebes, Lydia and even Bactrea and the Seleukids. The butting bull appears on coins from Thurium, Massalia, Sicily, Chersonesos, Crete, Thessaly, Ionia - and is apparently associated with mercenaries. So is the coin unique in that respect too?

I apologize for the basic question, but what is the significant of a "butting bull" vs "just a bull"? I have a coin myself with Dionysos and a bull (not butting).

Troas, Lamponeia
4th century BCE
AE 13mm 1.89g
Obv: head of Dionysos right, wearing ivy wreath
Rev: ΛΑΜ, Facing bull's head; kantharos above
SNG Copenhagen 445

 

Most coins I have with Dionysos have either grapes or a kantharos, but I do also have a lion, centaur, and goat.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I'll also make the same disclaimer.  I'm also no expert in picking out fakes, but after 30 years of collecting, this one just looks funny and gives me an 'uh-oh'.  I would have avoided it.  The purplish-deposits alone would have chased me away (ex-bronze disease). Such a coin may have been the culprit for a long-ago BD outbreak, during a time where I handled my coins more.

Oh, and disclaimer: I'm certainly no experts on Greek AE's, especially small ones. 

However, if it really DID have severe bronze disease would that be proof that the coin (or flan) was at least old?

There's just something 'off' about it, especially the obverse.  It may be old, but there's something going on, perhaps tooling. 

I hadn't thought of it previously, but with the discussion of legend, the legend curves a bit strangely, like someone was stuffing it onto an existing flan and avoiding going off the flan, especially the omega and ending N.

That being said, I stay out of 99% of real or fake discussions, but that's my take on the piece.  I would return it.

[kirispupis]

26 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

So I am wondering if the coin wasn't, originally, something like this from Massalia 

At this point, I'm not discounting any theories. One thing I've learned as a software engineer is: when something doesn't make sense, I'm making an assumption that's invalid.

In another search, I came across two coins that are intriguing.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9065626 - Avignon, Gaul

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9065636 - Samnagenses, Gaul

Another of the Samnagenses type was recently sold on VCoins - https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/tom_vossen/165/product/southern_gaul_samnagenses_circa_1st_century_bc_ae_16mm_166_gm_imitating_massalia_lt_2256/1837034/Default.aspx

Of course, I've already read about these types in Blanchet - which made no mention of anything from Nikaia. It was these types that initially led me to attribute it to Nikaia, Gaul - until Blanchet and ancient sources that described Nikaia as a military outpost for Massalia at the time pushed me to the other Nikaia.

[DonnaML]

What exactly is a "licensed numismatist" anyway? Licensed by the State like a barber, a cosmetologist, or an acupuncturist? A physician, a dentist, or an attorney? I don't see "numismatist" anywhere on any list! How many universities even offer degrees in the subject? Does this dealer have a license himself?

[John Conduitt]

43 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I apologize for the basic question, but what is the significant of a "butting bull" vs "just a bull"? I have a coin myself with Dionysos and a bull (not butting).

Troas, Lamponeia
4th century BCE
AE 13mm 1.89g
Obv: head of Dionysos right, wearing ivy wreath
Rev: ΛΑΜ, Facing bull's head; kantharos above
SNG Copenhagen 445

 

Most coins I have with Dionysos have either grapes or a kantharos, but I do also have a lion, centaur, and goat.

This particular style of butting bull has been associated with a culture that began in Sybaris (which had a reverted head bull) and Thurii. Thurii already had pretty much this bull complete with legend bending down with its neck, but a helmeted Athena on the obverse. See this coin found in Britain. It then got picked up in certain other places, like the Greek colonies in Sicily and Massalia, and from there got into the coinage of Gaul and Britain.

Edited September 24, 2023 by John Conduitt

[kirispupis]

Just some further research:

It seems that a butting bull meant different things. In the case of Thurium, this paper argues that it was the symbol of a group of mercenaries.

This short CoinWeek article suggests it denotes a river on a coin of Tyra.

FWIW, here are coins I have with bulls butting, besides the Aineia I already posted above.

Thrace, Madytos
circa 350-300 BCE
Æ 16 mm, 3,66 g
Obv.: Bull butting left; above, grain ear. Dotted border.
Rev.: Μ-ΑΔΥ; Dog seated right; behind, grain ear and crescent.
Ref: HGC, 1508; SNG Copenhagen, 923-25.

 

Ionia, Phygela
Circa 350-300 BCE
Æ 2.86g, 15mm, 12h
Sokrates, magistrate. Head of Artemis Munychia facing slightly to left
Bull butting to left against palm tree; ΦΥΓ above, ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ below.
SNG von Aulock 2150; SNG Copenhagen 1074; BMC 4-8. 

 

Phliasia, Phlious
Circa 400-350 BCE
AE 14.09mm 1.25g
Obverse: Bull butting left
Reverse: Large Φ surrounded by four pellets
BCD Peloponnesos 107
Ex BCD Collection
Ex 1985 Frank Kovacs

 

Caria, Kaunos
c. 350-300 BCE
Æ 13mm, 1.66g, 12h
Bull butting r.
R/ Sphinx seated r.
Konuk pl. 50, B; SNG Copenhagen 182

 

Krannon, Thessaly
ca. 300 BCE
Ae Chalkous 14.3mm, 2.2gms
Obv: Rider wearing petasos on horseback left, L E below left
Rev: Bull butting right, trident above; KPAN in exergue
Ex-BCD Collection

[kirispupis]

26 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

What exactly is a "licensed numismatist" anyway? Licensed by the State like a barber, a cosmetologist, or an acupuncturist? A physician, a dentist, or an attorney? I don't see "numismatist" anywhere on any list! How many universities even offer degrees in the subject? Does this dealer have a license himself?

I believe one needs to receive a certification from the magistrate given charge of minting coins. Since this system of delegating coinage disappeared perhaps 1500 years ago, I doubt there are any licensed numismatists left...

[kirispupis]

Summarizing all the assumptions I have been making, with the goal of uncovering which are false.

Reposting the coin for reference.

At least one of the following is NOT true:

1. This is a genuine ancient coin
2. This coin has not been tooled to depict something else
3. The obverse depicts Dionysos
4. The reverse depicts a butting bull
5. The inscription says NIKAIEΩN 

In answer to these:

1. Whether the coin is genuine is my primary goal. The opinions so far have been on both sides.
2. The cheek has been noted as being off. IMHO if this was tooled, it was a deceptive/good job.
3. Dionysos was just a guess based on the ivy wreath. I found coins with nymphs having ivy wreaths on searching.
4. Maybe it could be a panther?
5. It's been pointed out that there may be an extra 'I' after the 'E'. This certainly looks odd. Could it have been a mistake by the engraver or the tooler?

[CPK]

@kirispupis, did you ask what exactly he meant by "professionally restored"? That's pretty vague.

[kirispupis]

1 minute ago, CPK said:

@kirispupis, did you ask what exactly he meant by "professionally restored"? That's pretty vague.

I sent a mail earlier today with this question. I also sent a mail to Odysseus Numismatique to check on the Gaul possibility.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

If finally dawned on me what makes the obverse look so 'off' to me.  There's a huge ridge on the bust from the hairline to the brow.  While Ptolemy I did certainly have brows like that, it bothered me that the top of the head is in high relief while the rest of the bust in in low relief.