Is my Apollonia Pontika gorgoneion drachm fake? (Exact duplicate found)

[Ed Snible]

16 hours ago, Corbita said:

I'm curious to know - several of you mention that this type of coin is specifically one to watch out for because of prevalance of fakes. Is there something about the design or shape of the Apollonia Pontika that allows it to be convincingly faked in this method that fools even A-list dealers like HJB? Or is this a case of the coin being targeted for being faked due to its design, demand etc by some highly skilled forgers?

• The coins of Apollonia Pontika were rare when the iron curtain was up, and few Western dealers saw many originals.
• Many genuine coins were suddenly on the market and buyers were very trusting about this new region to buy coins from.
• Many people skilled in casting (jewelers, dental workers) were suddenly without funds when Communism stopped and the economy collapsed.
• Enough people interested in artifacts that museums sold replicas openly (meaning people who made coins for these shops were needed.)
• Fake diobols were produced in 1990, and unmasked, and there was a desire to produce something to fool Western buyers.  Forgers did extra work like hammering coins instead of pressing them, and making many different dies.
• There were enough forgers that they could learn from each other
• It takes a different skill set to recognize style in a facing-head coin than a profile coin.  (Many of you will be surprised to know that fake denarii can fool me!  The reason I got good at spotting facing head fakes is that I only look at facing head coins.)

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ed Snible

[John Conduitt]

16 hours ago, Corbita said:

I'm curious to know - several of you mention that this type of coin is specifically one to watch out for because of prevalance of fakes. Is there something about the design or shape of the Apollonia Pontika that allows it to be convincingly faked in this method that fools even A-list dealers like HJB? Or is this a case of the coin being targeted for being faked due to its design, demand etc by some highly skilled forgers?

Curious to know if many other coins can be faked this convincingly to pass even quality dealers, or if this is a case of this coin by its design nuances which allow it to be faked more readily. Anyone have any idea on what scale this problem is? Are there common things like, for example Hadrian Denarii being faked like this? 

I saw it mentioned that Legionary Denarii are often convincing fakes. What other "problem coins" are out there to be avoided? 

A thread like this is terrifying in its own way to someone new to collecting. Even I can spot the very poor cast fakes, but this thread is an eye opener as to how good some of these cast fakes can be. I thought it was just the better die-struck fakes which were truly dangerous. Very worrying that these fakes can even get past the likes of HJB which I would not have worried about buying from at all prior to this thread. 

Definitely scrutinizing the fake coin reports on Forum Ancient Coins more thoroughly before any future purchasers regardless of the gravitas of the dealer or auction house. Its a bit discouraging to see some of you return these fakes, only for the dealers or auctioneers to simply relist them instead of condemning them. 

I don't think low value coins are faked well very often. A lot have to be made to be profitable, so the dies have to be re-used and that's noticeable. It's easier for a forger to make one expensive coin, as although it will face more scrutiny, it's harder to spot and only needs to fool someone once. And if they want to make a lot of fakes, they might as well produce hundreds of poor quality fakes, which cost much less to produce and can easily be sold on eBay or to tourists who don't know what they're doing.

You'd hope the dealer or auction house would know which types are faked and pay attention, but sometimes they sell coins they don't know much about. HJB might know Greek coins, for example, but not Celtic or Saxon so they make mistakes with those. The good thing with high-profile auctions is that so many people look at them, the fakes are often taken down before it starts.

You can protect yourself to some extent by looking for provenance. This is less true for Greek coins but you could find a Hadrian denarius, for example, from a recent hoard with photos of the hoard published online.

Hadrian Denarius, 126-127

Rome. Silver, 17x18mm, 3.40g. Head of Hadrian, laureate, right, slight drapery on left shoulder; HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS. Virtus standing right, resting foot on helmet, holding spear and parazonium; COS III (RIC III, 851). From the Londonthorpe II (Lincolnshire) Hoard 2018, also known as Ropsley, Portable Antiquities Scheme LANCUM-F93E5B.

Sabina Denarius, 130-133

Rome. Silver, 17mm, 3.07g. Diademed and draped bust to right, wearing stephane; SABINA AVGVSTA HADRIANI AVG P P. Concordia seated to left, holding patera and sceptre; cornucopiae below throne; CONCORDIA AVG ([RIC II.3, 2052). From the Londonthorpe II (Lincolnshire) Hoard, also known as Ropsley, found in March 2018. Portable Antiquities Scheme ID: LANCUM-F93E5B.

[ambr0zie]

5 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

"This intervention only proves that you don't know what you're talking about. The Moretti collection was available to all scholars who wanted to study it. Over the years, all the most important merchants and great scholars of Sicilian coinage have viewed it and used it for their studies. This is information that anyone interested in Sicilian coinage at some level knows and which you evidently ignore. This is an incomplete list of the great experts who have seen the coin and expressed no doubt about its authenticity: Christoph Boheringer (sic), Silvia Hurter, Ulla Westermark, Carmen Biucchi, Herbert Cahn, Maria Caccamo Caltabiano, Kenneth Jenkins, Martin Price., Ross Holloway, Leo Mildenberg. Objectively all fallible, but with universally recognized prestige, while I have not yet understood who you are and what arguments you bring beyond the story of the Messina goldsmith and the fact that the coin is too well preserved. We will certainly have sold some fake coins too, but as my father said, the best is the one who makes the least mistakes and when thousands of coins are sold every year it is normal to make some mistakes. With this intervention I swear to no longer intervene on the forum which unfortunately gives too much space to interventions by people who make inferences without arguing in a reasonable manner. Arturo Russo"

@Deinomenid I know this gentleman did not address you, but if someone replies (especially publicly, but I find this attitude inacceptable even in private discussions) with things like 

that anyone interested in Sicilian coinage at some level knows and which you evidently ignore

while I have not yet understood who you are and what arguments you bring

We will certainly have sold some fake coins too, but  (any argument is invalid after but)

this means I will perhaps reply using the same tone, ignore after this and if that one is a dealer/seller, I will certainly not buy coins from them even if the price is excellent. I decided to ignore private sellers for much less. 

When I bought by Apollonia Pontika drachm I had my doubts. As clarified, these coins are suspicious BY DEFAULT. I expressed my thoughts to the auction house (Savoca) but their reply was elegant, professional and friendly. OK, I was also polite, but my argument was invalid (I initially mentioned I found a die match with a coin from NY hoard - it was not a die match). Instead of using this condescending tone, like mr Russo, they chose an elegant answer. 

Sometimes I feel some dealers/houses have too many customers and just want to get rid of some of them. 

Getting back on topic, here is an excellent article where we can see the genuine types and more info about coins from Apollonia Pontika. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20141115000124/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/apollonia.html

Edited September 22, 2023 by ambr0zie

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

@Deinomenid I know this gentleman did not address you, but if someone replies (especially publicly, but I find this attitude inacceptable even in private discussions) with things like 

that anyone interested in Sicilian coinage at some level knows and which you evidently ignore

while I have not yet understood who you are and what arguments you bring

We will certainly have sold some fake coins too, but  (any argument is invalid after but)

this means I will perhaps reply using the same tone, ignore after this and if that one is a dealer/seller, I will certainly not buy coins from them even if the price is excellent. I decided to ignore private sellers for much less. 

When I bought by Apollonia Pontika drachm I had my doubts. As clarified, these coins are suspicious BY DEFAULT. I expressed my thoughts to the auction house (Savoca) but their reply was elegant, professional and friendly. OK, I was also polite, but my argument was invalid (I initially mentioned I found a die match with a coin from NY hoard - it was not a die match). Instead of using this condescending tone, like mr Russo, they chose an elegant answer. 

Sometimes I feel some dealers/houses have too many customers and just want to get rid of some of them. 

Getting back on topic, here is an excellent article where we can see the genuine types and more info about coins from Apollonia Pontika. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20141115000124/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/apollonia.html

That Reid Goldsborough article on the Wayback Machine was one of the several sources I reviewed before buying my Apollonia Pontika drachm, along with the Forvum fake coin reports and other fake coin websites. Unfortunately, this particular fake wasn't included in any of them, and back in 2020 I don't think I was familiar with acsearch. Had I looked there, I might well have found the various "cast twins" like the one sold in 2016 by HJB, and would never have made the purchase.  I feel kind of dumb for missing it, but I'm glad the person from the German forum was kind enough to contact me to point it out, and that I got my money back. I've returned the coin back to LAC in an ordinary envelope; I trust them not to simply put it up for sale again! 

[Corbita]

Huge thank you to everyone who answered some of my questions. Learned a lot and I'm working my way through the links and sources cited. I wasn't expecting such thorough answers and great points that are really illustrating the nuance involved into the how and why these situations arose in the first place. Supremely appreciated to all!  

[ambr0zie]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

That Reid Goldsborough article on the Wayback Machine was one of the several sources I reviewed before buying my Apollonia Pontika drachm, along with the Forvum fake coin reports and other fake coin websites

I also knew about the article for a long time but I remembered and I wanted to save a copy .

There is only one problem - in the web.archive.org the article is saved without a picture of one of the genuine examples - type 7 

Would you or any other member have the original pic from the article? I saved it in my documentation but it would be good to have all the examples. 

Note - here is what I investigated for my coin. Very close to original type 2. Very close to fake specimen 40. No die matches to any of them. I am glad that 3 experts advised my coin is genuine but it proves how dangerous is this subject. 

 

[Prieure de Sion]

When you read posts like the ones here again and again - or when you often see that a considerable proportion of your collection consists of previously unrecognised forgeries ... I always lose my desire to collect.

Not even necessarily because of the financial aspect. Antique coins are above all an emotional thing for me. I often take a coin out of the collection and imagine what was going on around it at the time. Just the idea that other people held them in their hands 2000 years ago.

Turns out then - I had a 20th century fake in my hands that was never in antiquity. Don't laugh - I feel emotionally betrayed. Something like that hits me. It's like an emotional betrayal when your life partner cheats.

[filolif]

4 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

When you read posts like the ones here again and again - or when you often see that a considerable proportion of your collection consists of previously unrecognised forgeries ... I always lose my desire to collect.

Not even necessarily because of the financial aspect. Antique coins are above all an emotional thing for me. I often take a coin out of the collection and imagine what was going on around it at the time. Just the idea that other people held them in their hands 2000 years ago.

Turns out then - I had a 20th century fake in my hands that was never in antiquity. Don't laugh - I feel emotionally betrayed. Something like that hits me. It's like an emotional betrayal when your life partner cheats.

This is spot on and something that's often hard to articulate. It does feel like a betrayal and a loss of a feeling of time and history that's hard to express. Even the idea that a coin was just buried for thousands of years is part of the experience of collecting ancients for me.

[thenickelguy]

@DonnaML In the first post in this thread it appears that a very similar lot of these are shown maybe in the second image down? Odd I should stumble across it but for TV, I wonder where they got them for props for the mentioned TV show.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/more-coins-on-tv-stuff.407889/