This Vespasian Denarius has been checked off my want list

[thenickelguy]

Titus Flavius Vespasianus  9 - 79 AD

Vespasian was a Roman emperor who ruled from 69 to 79 AD.

Just a little bit of his story I found here and there.

Vespasian debased the denarius during his reign, reducing the silver purity from 93.5% to 90%. The silver weight dropped from 2.97 grams to 2.87 grams. <-(SEE comments further down in this thread about this statement}

He built the Colosseum which was the scene of thousands of combats between gladiators, of contests between men and animals, and of many larger combats, including mock naval engagements.
Vespasian had prevented the dissolution of the empire by putting an end to civil war, and it was fitting that pax (“civil peace”) should be a principle motif on his coinage. 
Pax appears on the reverse of my coin here.
In his last illness with an extreme case of diarrhea he stated to those around him that an Emperor should be standing when he died, as they were lifting him From his bed he said 

“Vae, puto deus fio” 

(“Oh dear, I think I’m becoming a god”)

After his death he was immediately accorded deification. He was succeeded by his sons Titus and then Domitian.

Listing Desc:
Vespasian 69 - 79 AD
Silver Denarius Rome Mint 19mm 2.76 grams
Obverse: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG Laureate head of Vespasian right.
Reverse: PON MAX TR P COS VI Pax seated left holding branch.
RIC 772

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by thenickelguy

[David Atherton]

2 hours ago, thenickelguy said:

Vespasian debased the denarius during his reign, reducing the silver purity from 93.5% to 90%. The silver weight dropped from 2.97 grams to 2.87 grams.

Where did you come across this information? Kevin Butcher and Matthew Ponting in their work* on the silver fineness of the denarius show that is simply not the case. Nero reformed the nearly pure denarius twice: the first Neronian reform reduced the denarius to nearly 80% pure, the second Neronian reform increased it briefly to 90%. This slightly higher standard continued under Galba but gradually fell back to 80% under Vitellius, which Vespasian maintained. 

The average weight of the denarius under Vespasian was @ 3.20g. The average range was anywhere between 2.90g to 3.60, depending on the issue. 

The above figures are for the Rome mint. Provincial fineness could be higher (Western denarii) or slightly lower (Eastern denarii) depending on the mint.

*The Metallurgy of Roman Silver Coinage, Cambridge 2014.

Edited September 16, 2023 by David Atherton

[thenickelguy]

I questioned that myself but I figured it was the amount of silver contained in the coin and not the total weight.

51 minutes ago, David Atherton said:

Where did you come across this information? Kevin Butcher and Matthew Ponting in their work* on the silver fineness of the denarius show that is simply not the case.

I found it here under the LEGACY topic. Second paragraph from the bottom in that section (LEGACY)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian#cite_note-60

I took that line that I copied for my own notes. If i am wrong it's because I got that info from Wikipedia. It didn't mean too much to me except I, being a beginner, was impressed that the coin had even that much fineness. To me it's no big deal. I will take that line out if you think I should. I apologize if it is inaccurate information.

 

 

[thenickelguy]

Vespasian debased the denarius during his reign, reducing the silver purity from 93.5% to 90%. The silver weight dropped from 2.97 grams to 2.87 grams.

That is a statement, but not necessarily a statement about my coin.

I would appreciate David Atherton. following up in this thread to clarify exactly what the silver content would be for this particular issue I have.

Could it be worn or shaved a little bit that results in it being only 2.76 grams?

Edited September 16, 2023 by thenickelguy

[David Atherton]

35 minutes ago, thenickelguy said:

I questioned that myself but I figured it was the amount of silver contained in the coin and not the total weight.

I found it here under the LEGACY topic. Second paragraph from the bottom in that section (LEGACY)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian#cite_note-60

I took that line that I copied for my own notes. If i am wrong it's because I got that info from Wikipedia. It didn't mean too much to me except I, being a beginner, was impressed that the coin had even that much fineness. To me it's no big deal. I will take that line out if you think I should. I apologize if it is inaccurate information.

 

 

The information in that 2008 waybackmachine link is woefully incorrect. It appears to have sourced D. R. Walker's work on the subject from the 70s, which was distorted due to silver surface enrichment. Since Walker's analysis more accurate readings have been gathered, as quoted above.

No need to apologise. You can edit or keep your post however you see fit, I'm just correcting the inaccuracy of the outdated data.

[David Atherton]

48 minutes ago, thenickelguy said:

I would appreciate David Atherton. following up in this thread to clarify exactly what the silver content would be for this particular issue I have.

 

Could it be worn or shaved a little bit that results in it being only 2.76 grams?

Your coin appears to have a low weight due to porosity and wear. The average weight for Vespasian's denarii struck in 75 AD is 3.37g. with an average silver fineness of 76%.

Edited September 16, 2023 by David Atherton

[ambr0zie]

Congratulations for adding one of the most popular emperors. I think Vespasian denarii are, chronologically, the oldest most affordable denarii and this is good news for collectors. 

In my first lot of denarii I bought (8 coins) I had 3 Vespasian denarii. 2 of them were exactly your type. 

Both RIC 772 with weights being 3,16 and 3 g. 

While attributing the coins I was a little disappointed that these are "identical" as any new started wants as many different types as possible, but seeing the clearly different dies made me understand that same RIC number does not mean identical coins. 

 

Note - in the same lot there was another Vespasian denarius. Initially I thought it's the same type again 

But after further investigation, this is RIC 29 from 70 AD (not 75 AD, as 772), also with Pax, but on this reverse Pax is holding a branch AND a caduceus. So a totally different type. Also the obverse legend orientation is a big clue.  

I also agree that the porosity and wear are the reasons for the slightly low weight of the OP coin. 

[Roman Collector]

This was the first denarius of Vespasian I obtained for my collection, about 35 years ago or so. The Pax seated reverse type reminded me of the trade dollar.

 

[LONGINUS]

That’s an interesting coin, @thenickelguy!

I knew immediately that I did not have one like it but I was certain that I at least had a PAX reverse that I could post. Anyway, I discovered to my surprise that I don’t have an image of PAX on any coin in my collection. The coins that I thought featured PAX turned out to be Ceres, Concordia, Felicitas, Fortuna, Juno, Pietas, Puditia, Salus or Victory.

So now, thanks to your post, I’m on a PAX quest.

 🕊️

[thenickelguy]

7 hours ago, David Atherton said:

No need to apologize. You can edit or keep your post however you see fit, I'm just correcting the inaccuracy of the outdated data.

Thanks for the help and to all who have posted your Vespasian coins.. I should certainly leave everything as is.

It has become educational for others as well as myself. Editing would only take away from the flow. I learn something new everyday here. Much appreciated.

[John Conduitt]

My only Vespasian is surprisingly worn given, as @ambr0zie says, they're very affordable for an early emperor. I'm guessing really nice ones are not so cheap. I know the ones found in Britain circulated for so long (on account of the high silver content of all early denarii) that they all come worn.

Vespasian Denarius, 74

Rome. Silver, 18mm, 3.01g. Laureate head Right; IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG. Emperor seated right on curule chair, feet on a low footstool, holding branch and sceptre; PON MAX TRP COS V (RIC II, 702). From the Westbury Sub Mendip (Somerset) Hoard 2016, Portable Antiquities Scheme: SOM-F1847A.

 

2 hours ago, LONGINUS said:

I discovered to my surprise that I don’t have an image of PAX on any coin in my collection.

That is quite a feat. I'd suggest playing the lottery but I'm not sure if a lack of Pax is good or bad luck 🤣

I've amassed 11 without trying. But 2 are Helena and 4 are Carausius, who was obsessed with Pax, so if you don't have a coin of his, the odds drop dramatically.

This is my earliest Pax, which is a later emperor but issued at the same time as Vaspasian's.

Titus as Caesar Denarius, 75

Rome. Silver, 18x20mm, 3.07g. Head of Titus, as Caesar, laureate, right; T CAESAR IMP VESPASIAN. Pax, naked to waist, seated left, holding olive branch extended in right hand, left hand in lap; PONTIF TR P COS IIII (RIC II, Vespasian 783). From the Westbury Sub Mendip (Somerset) Hoard 2016, Portable Antiquities Scheme: SOM-F1847A.

[LONGINUS]

I found a PAX in my collection (sort of ) it’s Livia as PAX. Does that count or not quite? 🤨

 

 

[thenickelguy]

I think my coin looks better than the images when in hand. Here is Ken Dorney's video of the same that I now own.

Thanks Ken Dorney for the coin and for the use of your pictures with permission and for uploading this video.

 

Now doesn't that look better? 

Edited September 16, 2023 by thenickelguy

[David Atherton]

I think videos are better than a static image.

[Marsyas Mike]

Nice Vespasian, @thenickelguy.  Here's the same type, but earlier, with Pax seated. 

Vespasian  Denarius (January-June 71 A.D.) Rome Mint IMP CAES VESP AVG [P M], laureate head right / TRI POT II [CO]S III P P, Pax seated left holding caduceus and branch. RIC II Part 1 (2nd ed.) 41; BMCRE 61-62, 364; Cohen 566. (3.00 grams / 16 mm) eBay June 2019