Weird die-axis on this denarius of P. Maenius Antias

[Roman Collector]

This is a new acquisition. It doesn't have the most unusual reverse type, to be sure, but it's pretty. And it has an interesting die-axis: 9:00.

P. Maenius Antias, a.k.a. Antiaticus, was a Republican moneyer, perhaps descended from the P. Maenius who issued coins in the 190s BC. He presumably claimed descent from C. Maenius, the Consul in 338 BC who conquered Antium. His coins are marked P·MAE·ANT·MF.
 

P. Maenius M. f. Antias, 132 BCE.
Roman AR denarius, 3.83 g, 19.0 mm, 9 h.
Rome, 132 BCE.
Obv: Helmeted head of Roma, right; * behind.
Rev: Victory in quadriga, right, holding reins and palm-branch in left hand and wreath in right hand; P·MAE ANT (monogram) below; ROMA in exergue.
Refs: Crawford RRC 249/1; Sydenham CRR 492; RSC Maenia 7; Sear RCV 126.

Do you have any Republican denarii with a weird die axis? Do you have any coins from this moneyer? Post anything you feel is relevant!

[Edessa]

Well, this is just my poor attempt to play with Excel for my 177 examples, but it looks rather random except for a period around 60 to 75 BC. 

[expat]

For any neophytes like me, there is some lovely info on die axis here

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=die axis

[John Conduitt]

It's an interesting question. I'd have thought they'd be random. As it happens, few of my Roman coins have die rotation of 12 or 6, but most are almost 12 or 6, in other words, 5, 7, 11 or 1. If they were on hinged dies, it's strange they're not straight (and consistently not straight).

Were all coins of a particular type the same? Forvm says "most Roman coin types have a consistent die axis of either 0 or 180 degrees," but does that mean RIC 48 would always be 0 degrees and RIC 49 always 180 degrees, or could they both be either (but nothing in between)?

Edited June 29, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Dwarf]

Link to a paper by Florian Hayman on the results of a two-year-project on die-axis on Roman Republican coins
(Happy translating)

Results in very short: There were no fixed dies. Sometimes regularities occur. Reason being: The guys in the mint took special care, perhaps due to orders of the tresviri.
And this seems to account for the coinage up to the 3rd. century.

Regards
Klaus

https://www.academia.edu/38386473/Beobachtungen_zur_Prägetechnik_römisch_republikanischer_Münzen_Die_Stempelstellung_In_W_H_et_al_Hrsg_Neue_Forschungen_zur_Münzprägung_der_Römischen_Republik_2016_S_381_392_zusammen_mit_F_Haymann_?auto=download

 

[John Conduitt]

41 minutes ago, Dwarf said:

Link to a paper by Florian Hayman on the results of a two-year-project on die-axis on Roman Republican coins
(Happy translating)

Results in very short: There were no fixed dies. Sometimes regularities occur. Reason being: The guys in the mint took special care, perhaps due to orders of the tresviri.
And this seems to account for the coinage up to the 3rd. century.

Regards
Klaus

https://www.academia.edu/38386473/Beobachtungen_zur_Prägetechnik_römisch_republikanischer_Münzen_Die_Stempelstellung_In_W_H_et_al_Hrsg_Neue_Forschungen_zur_Münzprägung_der_Römischen_Republik_2016_S_381_392_zusammen_mit_F_Haymann_?auto=download

 

This is from the end:
"Claude Brenot proved for the Antoniniani of Victorinus (admittedly minted in the Gallic special empire) that a mechanism was used when they were minted, which fixed the position of the dies in relation to one another. Although this device allowed the stamps to be turned from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock, significant deviations from these positions were hardly possible, so that the stamp position was maintained very precisely. At the time of the Roman Republic, this mechanism does not appear to have existed - in any case, it was not part of the inventory of the mints of that time. A tolerance range of +/- 1h can always be assumed for coins from Asia Minor, which were obviously designed for 12h or 6h, as well as for coins from the city of Rome, so that a coin type designed for 12h de facto has die positions between 11h and 1h. This tolerance range indicates that no mechanical aids were used to fix the stamps. The idea of stamps “fixed” by devices is therefore to be rejected. The "embossing tongs" that occasionally appear in the literature are also unlikely to have been used."

So when fixed, it could be either 12h or 6h for a given pair of dies, and when not fixed, presumably therefore being done by eye, it could be out by 1h either way. But in any case, they were trying to get it straight.

I'm now going to audit my coins. 🤣

Edited June 29, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Edessa]

A different way to look at it, just by die axis only brings out John's point. Strong plateau around 6, weaker plateau around 3, 9 and 12, Of course, a small sample.

[John Conduitt]

My collection is mostly Roman/Gallic Empire and is more aligned still with 12h and 6h. If you take out the Republic, there are even fewer outliers.

A large number are a little offset from 12h and 6h. Some could be because it isn't always clear where 12h is exactly on the obverse, but it seems whatever system they used was slightly biased towards just past the vertical i.e. 1h and 7h.

[NewStyleKing]

Why was SOME  of the mints so hung up on die axis anyway?  So what  did it matter?  Who cared?  Why and for what reason did they put effort into it?

 

Genuine NewStyles are uniformly 5 to 12 or 5 past 12......My known imitation proves it's an imitation by it being half past or 6 O'clock! And yet it came from a hoard  that contained official coins which tends to show that clockiness didn't seem important!  (nor to that matter a bit of a fantasy being a sort of mash up of 2 differing NewStyles! Indeed), it would seem to me to be sort of right size, weight but mostly an owl on amphora amongst other owl on amphora coins that actually mattered ..good enough!

It was in a hoard sold piecemeal  by Numismatik Lanz in 2013 from which I extracted 5 coins that are rarities, 4 official and the one imitation! 

Below NewStyle Imitation die axis  6 o'clock. Indeed Athena is of a mash up as well!

Next below, Thompson number #1 same hoard bloody great example...world beater!

Next, Not a world beater but rare

Next Thompson #4  rare

Next  rare

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by NewStyleKing

[John Conduitt]

15 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

My known imitation proves it's an imitation by it being half past or 6 O'clock

Isn't that why they cared? It's not perfect for detecting fakes, but nor are weight, mintmarks, style, spelling etc.

[NewStyleKing]

My 2 other imitations  are regular!  Nothing to do with Athens mint!......so what does it mean?  Some coins are struck from "loose dies".......I cannot truly think of a reasonable reason! I mean look at you Roman example above, Oh it's 142 BC  lets play with the die axis again. Swish, swish c'mon you scum  move those dies all together at 3 minutes past Marcus Minimuses  nose!

[Kaleun96]

Most of my collection is Greek but I have a fun interactive chart on my website that plots the die axis distribution of my collection: https://artemis-collection.com/data-statistics/charts/die-axis/

You can watch the reverse example spin as you hover around the chart 😁

[Kaleun96]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:51 PM, Edessa said:

Well, this is just my poor attempt to play with Excel for my 177 examples, but it looks rather random except for a period around 60 to 75 BC. 

I wonder if this just appears random because it's making space for each Crawford type by distributing the labels around the circumference evenly? Usually die axis is recorded as an integer but this chart suggests a continuous number as if the angle was measured precisely.

[NewStyleKing]

Numiswiki has nothing to say on the meaning of die alignment other than it exists or it exists  not !!!!!

I take it to mean that no one knows and few care!  But it must have held up the minting process. What about important coins for rapid coinage to armies......Marcus Antonius legionary coins, Eid Mar silvers, Julius Caesar elephant / Aeneas/Gallic captives.  Are they die aligned ? You know that type of stuff!  

Put blank flan onto obverse fixed die. hammer, now get fixed reverse die and hope that the struck flan has not moved out of alignment and strike it at the appropriate angle, remove flan.....

Sounds a pointless fuss to me and I reckon the reverse die would shift in the sweaty slaves numbed grip......( Don't fuss...I want it just so  or its your head next.......) 

Unless I got it all wrong.....something  sounds not right!!  What about English hammered coins?

Experts please!

[Kaleun96]

Edward Newell in Alexander Hoards II: Demanhur suggested that die adjustment may be a hold-over from Lydian, and then later Achaemenid, mint practices where the obverse and reverse dies were somewhat rectangular in shape (i.e. wider than they were tall) and needed to fit a similarly shaped flan. If they were out of alignment, a large portion of the die would not be in contact with the flan.

He then suggests that this practice may have just become the norm even when more circular flans were adopted, though it's not quite clear why you then see some mints care about die adjustment for one issue but then not for a slightly later issue (I'm thinking of some Alexander III mints here). Perhaps it reflects a change in mint administration.

Lloyd Taylor talks about die adjustment practices in many of his articles on Alexandrine mints. Here's a snippet from The Earliest Alexander III Tetradrachm Coinage of Babylon: Iconographic Development and Chronology on why the practice was possibly abandoned at one mint:

[Edessa]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:11 AM, Kaleun96 said:

I wonder if this just appears random because it's making space for each Crawford type by distributing the labels around the circumference evenly? Usually die axis is recorded as an integer but this chart suggests a continuous number as if the angle was measured precisely.

You are correct. Your presentation is much better.

[John Conduitt]

3 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

Numiswiki has nothing to say on the meaning of die alignment other than it exists or it exists  not !!!!!

I take it to mean that no one knows and few care!  But it must have held up the minting process. What about important coins for rapid coinage to armies......Marcus Antonius legionary coins, Eid Mar silvers, Julius Caesar elephant / Aeneas/Gallic captives.  Are they die aligned ? You know that type of stuff!  

Put blank flan onto obverse fixed die. hammer, now get fixed reverse die and hope that the struck flan has not moved out of alignment and strike it at the appropriate angle, remove flan.....

Sounds a pointless fuss to me and I reckon the reverse die would shift in the sweaty slaves numbed grip......( Don't fuss...I want it just so  or its your head next.......) 

Unless I got it all wrong.....something  sounds not right!!  What about English hammered coins?

Experts please!

Judging by the English hammered coins for which I have the die axis recorded, I don't think they cared. But suddenly, when they could do it by machine, die axis becomes a crucial anti-counterfeiting tool.