anonymous follis A2? question about interpreting DOC symbols

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

28mm, 12.25g.

From the picture, it looks like the chip is very old, probably original.

I bought this pretty nice one in a buy where I bought mostly exceptionally large 7th c. folles. I'd grade it at VF+.

I have the pdf versions of DOC.  I seldom use it and I'm confused by the listings.  I got hung up on the pellets of the cross.  I found some listings which may be similar, but the tables didn't ahve the x's containing the pellets.  Does the table ignore the x's?

is this a later class A2?  How does one tell the difference between A3, besides weight?

I also noticed that the beard is different than some large (34-35mm, heftier) A2's that I was looking at.

It's an unusually preserved example so it should be possible to find in DOC if I can figure it out.  I'm also working with one good eye, so I might miss small details.  The relevant cions begin around the 660's pages of DOC.

I'm much cooler with ancient damage than modern damage.  The relatively inexpensive price made it a no-brainer to plop it into the cart.

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Anyone have any suggestions about interpreting the DOC tables?  I'm unsure if I should be ignoring the X's in the cross.

The book symbols are also highly confusing, too small to be of any real help.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

@Glebe  @Simon,  any Byzantine experts?

Ignoring the X and assuming the too-small book icon is a match, would DOC A2.35 be it? (page 665)

 

And could someone explain the difference between A2 and A3?

[Simon]

@Nerosmyfavorite68 I think there are many more variations than listed in DOC. I many years ago stopped looking but it is one of the most popular series of Byzantine coinage. 

This page will be very helpful for you to check out. 

Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles - NumisWiki, The Collaborative Numismatics Project (forumancientcoins.com)

It makes it much easier to match. 

Simon

 

 

[John Conduitt]

I was also going to link to Forvm. They explain the difference between A1, A2 and A3 too.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Thanks much!

It took me a while to figure out how to @ a name.  It really works!  I'll go look after I get back from the ice cream shop.

I bought this one as a snack, since my buys of the other two had been delayed.

And thanks, John Conduitt!

By the way, my dad got me an 'Edward IV' 'York' penny.  This one isn't clipped, but is still kind of decrepit.  I'll attempt to photograph it sometime, to see if the attribution is correct this time. 

Perhaps I should get a photo scanner. Either here or CT, Dougsmit had a thread on it.  Even though he wasn't satisfied with the results, it's a whole lot better than what I was achieving.  The problem, where to put it...

Edited June 18, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Forum 42a? Is that mine?

 

Oops, I guess I should say Forum 41.

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[DLTcoins]

The essential difference between A1 and A2 is module. While the broadest examples of A1 are about the same diameter as your coin, the heaviest is only 9.18gm. Based on table 24 (p. 645), yours appears to be A2, variety 41. See also p. 647, 41n. Listings for A2.41 begin on p. 668. It takes a little imagination to match the symbols as printed in the book with the way they actually appear on the coin but that's the nature of the beast.

Edited June 18, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Ok, thanks!  It appears that I completely missed that listing in DOC.  Such are the drawbacks of having eye trouble.

 

I'm just now getting back from walking back from the ice cream shop.  I should have a go at attributing my grottier examples, if even possible.

I'm a bit confused by the 'A' listed on the reverse tables.  Are they referring to the style of A's in basileus, etc?

Given the weights of the 41's, perhaps the flan chip was intentional, kind of like the adjustment marks on republican denarii? The chip made the coin quite affordable.  A non-chipped one probably would have cost at least 4 times as much.

Have there been any attempts to correspond varieties with provincial mints?

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I guess I had only one photographed A2, possibly my only one, up to the chipped coin's purchase.

It's too decrepit to have a book.  There is enough of the bottom reversedecoration to suggest Forum table #11 (yellow) to me. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles

 

The forum page says that Class K is 'very rare'.  I'm almost certain that I have one, from an Alan Berman junk box.  I'd recognize the dotted border anywhere.

[Al Kowsky]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:23 PM, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

28mm, 12.25g.

From the picture, it looks like the chip is very old, probably original.

I bought this pretty nice one in a buy where I bought mostly exceptionally large 7th c. folles. I'd grade it at VF+.

I have the pdf versions of DOC.  I seldom use it and I'm confused by the listings.  I got hung up on the pellets of the cross.  I found some listings which may be similar, but the tables didn't ahve the x's containing the pellets.  Does the table ignore the x's?

is this a later class A2?  How does one tell the difference between A3, besides weight?

I also noticed that the beard is different than some large (34-35mm, heftier) A2's that I was looking at.

It's an unusually preserved example so it should be possible to find in DOC if I can figure it out.  I'm also working with one good eye, so I might miss small details.  The relevant cions begin around the 660's pages of DOC.

I'm much cooler with ancient damage than modern damage.  The relatively inexpensive price made it a no-brainer to plop it into the cart.

 

Nero., Your A2 follis is a nice looking coin, what's left of it 😏. Weight can be very deceptive when attributing these coin, for example see the two coins pictured below. The top coin I sold at a Heritage auction 11 years ago for $488.75, its weight of 18.42 gm is unusually heavy. The bottom coin, still in my collection, has a typical weight of 10.47 gm, with a diameter of 29 mm. 

You might find the link below helpful 😊.

https://www.academia.edu/43617724/The_Byzantine_Anonymous_Follis

 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Those are very handsome examples, indeed.  This one was a (nice) throw-in to keep me sated until I make my next order, which will hopefully be the two coins which I originally intended to buy, but became sidetracked over the last two buys.

Thank you for the link. However, I can't seem to log in over there.

The A2's which I like most are the 35mm.+ ones.

The damage 'seems' to be ancient.  Without the damage, it probably would have cost $300-400.  And it's about the best possible spot for the chip.  I'll have to examine it in-hand, but I'm still inclined to think that perhaps it was a weight adjustment thing from the mint.  Or, it broke while minting and the weights matched, so they kept it.