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Sword or Spear? Additional Eyes needed.


Simon

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This is a John II half tetarteron, the official description has St. Demetrius holding a sword, however when looking at my other photographed example it appears clearly to be a spear. 

Is this a variation or was the description misattributed to begin with. Opinions are welcome, as are other examples. 

1955A.jpg.0a641f6cce2e5e837d556e1cac660074.jpg

JOHN II AE HALF TETARTERON S-1955 DOC 17 CLBC 3.4.6


OBV Bust of St. Demetrius beardless and nimbate, wearing tunic, breastplate, and saigon. Holds in r. hand sword Spear and l. shield.

REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision, collar piece, and paneled loros of a simplified type; holds in r. hand labarum headed scepter and in l. gl. cr.

Size 16mm

Weight 2.22gm

DOC lists 13 examples with weights from 1.05gm to 2.92gm and sizes from 15mm to 18mm

 

Traditional example. Looks like sword.

1955.jpg.15294db5068580029a4344293df7c82c.jpg

 

Another example in collection, Spear?

 

b1.jpg.9c74d6edc930e8642c2d3162ec7ae132.jpg

 

St Demetrius coins are easy to distinguish from St George, the shield is triangle.  What are the dots on the mid-section of the spear? /Sword? 

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35 minutes ago, Simon said:

This is a John II half tetarteron, the official description has St. Demetrius holding a sword, however when looking at my other photographed example it appears clearly to be a spear. 

Is this a variation or was the description misattributed to begin with. Opinions are welcome, as are other examples. 

1955A.jpg.0a641f6cce2e5e837d556e1cac660074.jpg

JOHN II AE HALF TETARTERON S-1955 DOC 17 CLBC 3.4.6


OBV Bust of St. Demetrius beardless and nimbate, wearing tunic, breastplate, and saigon. Holds in r. hand sword Spear and l. shield.

REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision, collar piece, and paneled loros of a simplified type; holds in r. hand labarum headed scepter and in l. gl. cr.

Size 16mm

Weight 2.22gm

DOC lists 13 examples with weights from 1.05gm to 2.92gm and sizes from 15mm to 18mm

 

Traditional example. Looks like sword.

1955.jpg.15294db5068580029a4344293df7c82c.jpg

 

Another example in collection, Spear?

 

b1.jpg.9c74d6edc930e8642c2d3162ec7ae132.jpg

 

St Demetrius coins are easy to distinguish from St George, the shield is triangle.  What are the dots on the mid-section of the spear? /Sword? 

I think it's safe to say he's not holding a sword, however, could it be a different kind of scepter 🤔?

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Ever since the 4th century East Roman (Byzantine) emperors are depicted with a spear (or shield and spear), but never with a sword. Also in Byzantine iconography outside numismatics, the emperor seems to be depicted with a spear (or a sceptre/cross). So my guess is that he is holding a spear. 

Edited by Tejas
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1 hour ago, Tejas said:

Ever since the 4th century East Roman (Byzantine) emperors are depicted with a spear (or shield and spear), but never with a sword. Also in Byzantine iconography outside numismatics, the emperor seems to be depicted with a spear (or a sceptre/cross). So my guess is that he is holding a spear. 

Thank you but the Eastern romans had a ceremonial sword, it was first described in the 10th century as inventory of the Emperors baggage train, It is also depicted on some of the gold coinage of Manuel, John II son. 

As for St Demeterius, he is a Military saint, first appearing in text in the 9th century. On the web he is depicted with a sword or a spear so neither would be strange for him to be shown with. I am right now thinking it is two different variations of the coin, however in DOC they make no mention of a Spear. They have many more examples than I do. 

I also checked Hendys original publication Coinage and Money), and he said sword in that publication as well. I have noticed he changed at least one-coin description in his future publication of DOC IV but not this coin in question.

In CLBC they did revise it and made it a spear but without note to the change. 

So I saw an example yesterday on a old CNG auction and it was a sword shaped, my second example, rough on the St side seems to be a sword as well. However, after checking CNG archive and sixbid archive neither clearly shows a sword, all clean examples depict a spear or other similar device @Al Kowsky suggested.

 

Here is Manuel Comnenus with the sword. 

e2.jpg.580d2a77be368b40880ce9b6221f717a.jpg

Edited by Simon
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The 'bumps' below the tip of the weapon in the first and third of your photos make this look like the kontos/kontarion employed by the cavalry from ca. 9th to at least 1200. The middle pic might be a menaulion, from ca. 10th century onwards - this one is a wider-blade weapon with or without the transept spikes you see on the shorter hunting spears.
4f48237128d5e5f1add84dc375092b9c.jpg.0d35ce28675caf4c89dc0e25e2e6b7e1.jpgPreslav kontarion

 

317f69000fede85b5e43b40a1bc80391.jpg.54c2bb317da4b95ce8a6e3481e9abb43.jpg Serce Limani menaulion

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Looks like a spear. One of my coins below. I could see a reason why the literature is mentioning "sword" - the spear would be very tall, so its tip would be way above the head of its holder. Unless it is a stylized way to make the spear fit the design.

image.png.a009b208dbcc0733394315db0dc0acfb.png

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