Spaniard Posted January 22, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) Recently I purchased this Septimius Severus denarius from Laodicea ad Mare and was wondering what the general consensus is, within the collecting fraternity now, as to the location of these types.....Would appreciate any feedback on mint location...Do I still attribute these to Laodicae or unknown Syrian mint? Please feel free to post your coins from "Laodicea ad Mare/unknown Syrian mint" First here's the coin... Septimius Severus. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.24 gm, 19mm). Laodicea mint. Struck 202 AD.Obv.: SEVERVS PIVS AVG, laureate head right.Rev.: COS III P P, Victory walking left, holding wreath in her right hand and palm in her left.BMC 732; Cohen 102; RIC 526. gVF. This is my third coin from this mint...Here's the other two... Julia Domna Augusta, 193-217 AD. AR Denarius (3.23 gm, 19mm). Laodicea mint. Struck under Septimius Severus, 198-202 AD.Obv.: IVLIA AVGVSTA... Draped bust right.Rev.: PVDICITIA... Pudicitia seated left, hand raised to breast......RIC IV #644 (Severus); RSC 168a Caracalla..198-217 AD. AR Denarius (2.82 gm, 19mm). Laodicea mint. Struck 200/1 AD.Obv.: ANTONINVS AVGVSTVS, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right.Rev.: SAL GEN HVM, Salus standing left, holding serpent-entwined scepter, and raising kneeling figure personifying the human race. RIC 350; BMC 701; RSC 558a. gVF. Edit...Just ran across this for those interested... http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=41113.0 Edited January 22, 2023 by Spaniard 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 22, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 22, 2023 The British Museum describes the mint as "Antiochia ad Orontem (formerly attributed to Laodicea ad Mare)". I am not sure is the basis of their change in mint identification. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted January 22, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 @maridvnvm...Thanks Martin, do you think this type were a travel mint?...Also do we put the Emesa style into the same box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted January 22, 2023 · Patron Share Posted January 22, 2023 I once queried the curator of the coin cabinet at the British Museum, Richard Abdy, about this issue in an email. This was his kind and very informative reply: Dear RC: Thank you for your email. Off the top of my head I suspect it was a figment of Harold Mattingly’s imagination (I hope I’m not taking his name in vain – could be one of his contemporaries in the early to mid-century, e.g. maybe Mattingly mooted the ideas and R. A. G. Carson ran with them – I think Carson was the one that confidently proclaimed denarius minting returned to Rome from Lyon under Caligula when modern metallurgy now shows the move was part of Nero’s mint reforms of AD 64). The three largest mint centres of silver coinage in the east were Cappadocia in Caesarea, Antioch and Alexandria. Alex is very easy to recognise when they produce Roman format denarii as their style is so distinct (they have protuberant eyes like the Garfield cartoon characters!). The bilingual pieces of Pescennius Niger link Latin-legend obverses of the style Mattingly described under the Severans as ‘Emesa’ with their Greek legend reverses (some with the typical design of their holy mountain Argeus amongst others). As for the bulk of Niger’s denarii – that was agreed as Antioch (his capital). So the denarius mints in the East at the dawn of the Severan period seem quite straightforward now. See: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia/coins/r4/r14110.htm The problem comes with the Mattingly / Carson mentality to weave coins into history more than the evidence can support it. Thus the Niger-supporting cites (such as Antioch) as we all know were subsequently disgraced and degraded in status – so surely the mints must have been transferred to the new political capitals? Well there isn’t any corroborating evidence so it seems silly to build ‘facts’ on such supposition. It’s a good lesson to learn not to get creative with the evidence – no matter how tempting! (Thus nowadays one might say ‘minted in Syria’ to be on the safe side.) A good place to confirm my unreliable memory is Kevin Butcher’s book: Coinage in Roman Syria. Kind regards, Richard Abdy 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted January 22, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 @Roman Collector...Thanks an interesting email! Where does that leave us?... For me a travelling mint... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted January 22, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 One simple question....When did the supposed Laodicea mint it's first coins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 22, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 22, 2023 These coins were late when the output was high and a branch mint of Rome which all started with the New IMP VIII issues I dont think it was travelling at this time but there may have been travelling mints earlier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted January 22, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 @maridvnvm....hmmm...Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted January 23, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted January 23, 2023 Excellent portrait! Here's my best Septimius: 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted January 23, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted January 23, 2023 ..very nice one @Spaniard...yours too @Ryro...:D 5 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 23, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 23, 2023 As stated the coins above are late in the output. There are a whole range of styles.When we talk about what was referred to as "Emesa" we have a range of issues not just the COS II. These can generally be linked through reverse die links that cross over issues. I call these "Eastern COS issues" even though they are not all COS but the COS II issue is the bulk of the output. This mint is made up of the following obverse legend varieties.The first issue is IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG with a small number of spelling variations such as PEPT for PERT. Generally dated to Late A.D. 193 into early A.D. 194.What follows this issue and comes before the COS II issue is unclear. It is made up of a whole number of obverse legends variations before the mint settled on COS II as the obverse legend. I suspect that the issue that follows AVG is made up of a whole number of obverse legend variations which are contemporary with one another. The legends start with "IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG" but end with range of suffixes such as "II C", "II CO", "II COS", ". CO" and "CO II". There is a very limited number of dies comprising these.I suspect that these are followed by the "COS I" issue, which is also quite small.Then we move into the bulk of the issues from this mint, which is "COS II".Most of the COS II coins have fairly consistent style and can be seen to be different from the "Eastern IMP II" known historically as "Laodicea-as-Mare" issue which is probably contemporary with the "COS II issues". The "IMP II" issue is significantly smaller than the "COS II" issue as a whole.There are a few dies that have "COS II" legends that have a range of spelling errors that are more closely aligned in style to the "IMP II" issue. Dies studies might well help place these coins in their correct placing but I am not aware of anything published in this regard.The "early Eastern IMP VIII" issue is larger than the "IMP II" issue and is assumed to follow on from the "IMP II" issue after a small time gap at the mint. There are not any reverse die links between the "IMP II" and "IMP VIII" issues. It should be noted that the issues identified as "IMP", "IMP I", "IMP VI" and "IMP VII" do not exist in these eastern issues and are misreading of coins where one of more Is break after the bust.All the above are likely generally contemporary with Septimius Severus travelling in the east.There is now a change in status of the mint and a significant change in style. These are then called the "New Style IMP VIII" and then the later issues. The mint seems to have now become a branch mint of the Rome mint. The reverses often now reflect the output of the mint in Rome.The chronology for the new style is generally quite well understood and largely as follows.L SEPT SEV PER AVG IMP VIII - A.D. 197L SEPT SEV PER AVG IMP VIIII - A.D. 197L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG PIV IMP XI PAR P M - A.D. 198L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG P M IMP XI - A.D. 198SEVERVS AVG PART MAX P M TR P VIIII - A.D. 201L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX - A.D. 198-202SEVERVS PIVS AVG - A.D. 202Regards,Martin 7 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted January 23, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 Thanks Martin!...Need some time to sit down and work through your response..Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted January 25, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) It's always nice to see some eastern Severan denarii. And reading through this thread shed some light on their somewhat complicated chronology and attribution. Thanks for all the info, @maridvnvmand @Roman Collector! I have a few Severan denarii from the eastern part of the Empire. First are two "COS II" coins of Septimius Severus previously attributed to Emesa: Septimius Severus, Roman Empire, AR denarius, 194–195 AD, “Emesa” mint (now attributed by the BM to a mint in Cappadocia). Obv: IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II; head of Septimius Severus, laureate, r. Rev: FORTVN REDVC; Fortuna (Pax?), draped, seated l,, holding branch in extended r, hand and cornucopiae in l. hand. Ref: RIC IV Septimius Severus 386. 18mm, 2.08g. Septimius Severus, Roman Empire, AR denarius, 194–195 AD, “Emesa” mint (now attributed by the BM to a mint in Cappadocia). Obv: IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II; head of Septimius Severus, laureate, r. Rev: MONET AVG; Moneta, draped, standing l., holding scales in extended r. hand and cornucopiae in l. hand. 18mm, 3.32g. Ref: RIC IV Septimius Severus 411A. Second are an "IMP XI" coin for Septimius Severus and a young Geta from what used to be known as the "Laodicea" mint: Septimius Severus, Roman Empire, denarius, 198–202 AD, “Laodicea ad mare” mint (now attributed to Antioch). Obv: L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, head of Septimius Severus, laureate, r. Rev: MARTI [VICTO]RI; Mars, helmeted, in military attire, standing r., resting r. hand on shield and holding reversed spear in l. hand. 19mm, 3.01g. Ref: RIC IV.1 Septimius Severus 508. Geta, Roman Empire, AR denarius, 198–200 AD, “Laodicea ad mare” mint (now attributed to Antioch). Obv: L SEPTIMIVS GETA CAES; bust of Geta, bare-headed, draped, r. Rev: SPEI PERPETVAE; Spes, draped, advancing l., holding flower in r. hand and raising skirt with l. hand. 20mm, 3.19g. RIC IV Geta 96. Last is an eastern denarius of Julia Domna. RIC places this issue at either Laodicea or Emesa, and the BM only gives "eastern Roman empire" as the mint location. Does anyone maybe know more? Julia Domna, Roman Empire, denarius, 193–196 AD, eastern mint (Antioch or Cappadocia?). Obv: IVLIA DO[MNA] AVG, bust of Julia Domna, draped, r. Rev: VENER VICT, Venus standing l., holding apple in extended r. hand and sceptre in l. 17mm, 2.54g. Ref; RIC IV.1 Septimius Severus 630. Edited January 25, 2023 by Ursus 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 25, 2023 Let me try and help out with some examples to illustrate some of what I outline above....COS II coinage:-AVG -Obv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head rightRev:- BONI EVENTVS, Fides (Bonus Eventus - RIC) standing left holding basket of fruits in right hand, grain ears in left.Minted in Emesa. A.D. 194Ref:- RIC 352 (Scarce). RSC 66Obv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head rightRev:- BONI EVENTVS II COS, Fides standing left holding plate of fruit and two wheat earsMinted in Emesa. A.D. 193Reference:- BMCRE -. RIC -. RSC -.AVG II CObv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II C, Laureate head rightRev:- BONETAE AVG (sic), Moneta standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in leftMinted in Emesa, 194 - 195 A.D.References:- RIC -. RSC -. BMC -.AVG II COObv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II CO, Laureate head rightRev:- VICTOR IVST AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left .Minted in Emesa, Early A.D. 194References:- RIC -, RSC -, BMCRE -.II COS (as far as I am aware there are only three known examples form this obverse die)Obv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II COS, Laureate head rightRev:- FORTVNAE REDVCI II COS, Fortuna standing left holding rudder and cornucopiaMinted in Emesa, 194 - 195 A.D.References:- RIC -. RSC -. BMC -.. COObv:- IMP CE L SEP SEV PERT AVG CO, Laureate head rightRev:- BONI EVENTVC, Fides (sometimes referred to as Bonus Eventus) standing left holding basket of fruit and corn ears.Minted in Emesa, Late A.D. 193 or Early A.D. 194References:- RIC -, RSC -, BMCRE -.CO II - I haven't seen any example yetCOS IObv:- IMP CAE L SEP SE - V PERT AVG COS I, Laureate head rightRev:- FORTVNAE REDVCI, Fortuna (Pietas) standing left holding patera and cornucopia, sacrificing over altarMinted in Emesa, A.D. 193References:- RIC Page 139 (5) (Scarce)COS IIObv:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head rightRev:- INVICTO IMP, Trophy with captured arms belowMinted in Emesa, A.D. 194 - 195References:- RIC 389 (Scarce), RSC 232 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 25, 2023 Short / odd COS II. I have catalogued 30 examples from 9 obverse dies with a variety of obverse legend errors.IMP CA L SE SEV PER AVG COS IIIMP CA L SEP SEV PER AVG COS IIIMP CA L SEP SEV PER AVG COS IIIMP CA L SE SEV PER AVG COS IIIM-P CA L SEP SE-V PER AVG COS IIIMP CA L SEP SE_V PER AVG COS IIIMP CA L SE SEV PEVR (sic) AVG COS I-IIMP CA L SEP S-EV PER AVG COS - IIIMP CA L SE SEV PER AG COS II 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 25, 2023 IMP IIIMP - II (could be mis-read as IMP)Obv:- L SEPT SEV PERET AVG IMP - II, Laureate head rightRev:- INVICTO IMPER, Trophy with arms belowReferences:- RIC -. BMCRE-. RSC-.IMP I-I (could be mis-read as IMP I)Obv:- L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP I-I, Laureate head rightRev:- FORT R-D-EVC, Fortuna standing left holding cornucopiae in each handReference:- RIC -. RSC-. BMCRE -. No examples in the Reka-Devnia hoardStandard IMP IIObv:- L SEPT SEV P-ERTE AVG IMP II, Laureate head rightRev:- FORT R-DEVC, Fortuna seated left holding rudder and cornucopiaeReferences:- RIC -. RSC-. BMC W Page 108 * (citing Cohen 168 though Cohen 168 is PERT though the BMC coin is decribed as PERTE)Early IMP VIII examplesObv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head rightRev:- BON EVENT, Fides standing left holding basket of fruits in right hand, grain ears in leftReference:- BMCRE 440 Note corr. (BON EVENT not BONI). RIC 467 corr. (S) (467 is IMP VII). Cohen 63 (citing Paris).Evidently no examples of this reverse legend variety were seen by the authors of RIC or BMCRE as they both note the coin but cite Cohen 63 which evidently cites a misread obverse legend of VII likely being VII-I from ParisObv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VII-I, Laureate head rightRev:- ARAB ADIABENIC, Victory advancing left holding wreath and palmRef:- Cohen -, BMCRE -, RIC -.Probably an early coin as the style is much more like the IMP II issues but that is entirely my supposition.The reverse refers to victory over Niger. To hide the fact that this was a civil war, it is phrased as victory over Arabs and Adiabenians, who aided Niger's cause.RIC IV 466 has the same reverse legend, listed as IMP VII but as Curtis points out this legend is probably a mis-reading of IMP VIII probably cause by the last I being after the bust as on this example. RIC 466 however is Victory with wreath and trophy whereas this type is Victory with wreath and palm. RIC and BMCRE cite Cohen 52 (5 Francs) for this coin.Early IMP VIII with longer SEVER legendsObv:- L SEPT SEVER PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head rightRev- FORTA EDVC or FORT REDVC (R corrected from A), Fortuna seated left holding rudder and cornucopia 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted January 25, 2023 · Member Share Posted January 25, 2023 New style IMP VIIIObv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head rightRev:- P M TR P V COS II P P, Pax seated left, holding branch and sceptreMinted in Laodicea-ad-Mare, A.D. 196 - 197References:- RIC 490a (Common), RSC 444IMP VIIIIObv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIIII, laureate head rightRev:- P M TR P V COS II P P, Sol standing left, raising right hand, holding whip in leftLaodicea-ad-mare mint. A.D. 198Reference:- BMCRE 463. RIC 492. RSC 433L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG PIV IMP XI PAR P M - A very rare, short lived issueObv:- L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG PIV IMP XI PAR P M, laureate head rightRev:- AR AD [T]R P VI COS II P P, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in leftEastern mint. A.D. 198Reference:- BMCRE page 280 *, citing RD page 105. RIC 494a corr.L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG P M IMP XIObv:- L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG P M IMP XI, laureate head rightRev:- PAR AR AD TR P VI COS II P P, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palmMinted in Laodicea ad Mare, A.D. 198References:- BMCRE 625. RIC 495, RSC 361SEVERVS AVG PART MAX P M TR P VIIII - I don't have any examples of this scarcer issueL SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAXObv:- L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head rightRev:- IVST-ITIA, Justitia (Justice) seated left with patera & scepterMinted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 199-202Reference:- RIC 505. RSC 251SEVERVS PIVS AVGObv:- SEVERVS PIVS AVG, Laureate head rightRev:- COS III P P, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palmMinted in Laodicea-ad-Mare, A.D. 202Ref:- RIC 526Similar to the one in your OPObv:- SEVERVS PIVS AVG, laureate head rightRev:- PART MAX P M TR P VIIII, two captives seated at foot of trophyMinted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 202Reference:- RIC IV -; BMCRE -; RSC -.2.94 gms. 0 degrees. 20.31 mm 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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