North East Coast

[leeshiel]

North East Coast. Left Type. Sills Mint B, fig.8. c.60-50 BC. Gold stater. 19mm. 6.09g. Wreath motif with leaves facing inwards, horizontal line of pellets below./ Lunate horse left, pellets and crescent above, large pellet below, zigzag exergual decoration. ABC 1722, 0VA 804, BMC 193-99, S 29. SCARCE.

 

[John Conduitt]

Where did you get it from?

[Al Kowsky]

17 hours ago, leeshiel said:

North East Coast. Left Type. Sills Mint B, fig.8. c.60-50 BC. Gold stater. 19mm. 6.09g. Wreath motif with leaves facing inwards, horizontal line of pellets below./ Lunate horse left, pellets and crescent above, large pellet below, zigzag exergual decoration. ABC 1722, 0VA 804, BMC 193-99, S 29. SCARCE.

 

leeshiel, Thanks for posting your interesting gold stater of the Corieltavi tribe (considered Rare by Chris Rudd), & issued by an unknown ruler ☺️. The obverse design is typical for the period, an abstract-devolved Apollo head with hidden face motifs. The reverse is typical in style too, showing an abstract-disarticulated horse, charioteer's arm, pellets, & crescents. The Corieltavi were a powerful & wealthy tribe who issued gold staters long after their contemporaries, although the later issues are very debased.

Pictured below is a gold stater from the Southern region issued by the Regini & Atrebates,that I acquired several years ago. Stylistically it is very similar to your stater.

CELTIC. Atrebates & Regini. Commius. Struck circa 50-25 BC. Commios Muzzles (Atrebates C) type. AV Stater: 17 mm, 5.42 gm, 7 h. Note the chariot wheel below the horse. Rare. ABC 1022, Van Arsdell 350-1. Ex Chris Rudd FPL 137, #11, September 2014; Ex Chris Rudd FPL 89, #19, September 2006. 

[leeshiel]

20 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Where did you get it from?

I found it in a field John.

 

3 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

Thanks for posting your interesting gold stater of the Corieltavi tribe (considered Rare by Chris Rudd),

Your welcome thanks for the information, (so its not a rare coin? considered by you) i think Chris considered it scarce maybe it is in this condition? your example is a bit battered around the edge and worn.

Edited November 22, 2022 by leeshiel

[Al Kowsky]

7 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

I found it in a field John.

 

Your welcome thanks for the information, (so its not a rare coin? considered by you) i think Chris considered it scarce maybe it is in this condition your example is a bit battered.

Of course I consider your coin rare, as I do mine 🤩. I used the Chris Rudd reference just to make it clear it's not my opinion, it came from the printed page of Rudd's book 😉. His book ANCIENT BRITISH COINS is the bible for British Celtic coins.

[leeshiel]

1 minute ago, Al Kowsky said:

Of course I consider your coin rare, as I do mine 🤩. I used the Chris Rudd reference just to make it clear it's not my opinion, it came from the printed page of Rudd's book 😉. His book ANCIENT BRITISH COINS is the bible for British Celtic coins.

Thanks i thought the quote was disputing it,

i know very little about Celtic coins my information was taken from a coin sold by CR that was from the same die.

If you haven't guessed i am a metal detetorist the moment i found it.

 

[Al Kowsky]

6 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

Thanks i thought the quote was disputing it,

i know very little about Celtic coins my information was taken from a coin sold by CR that was from the same die.

If you haven't guessed i am a metal detetorist the moment i found it.

 

Thanks for sharing the video, it gives the coin greater importance 😊.

[DCCR]

11 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

i know very little about Celtic coins my information was taken from a coin sold by CR that was from the same die

Nice find Lee 🙂.  ABC is 12 years old and many of the rarity ratings are out of date now.  If it was listed as scarce in a Chris Rudd auction then it's at least scarce now (51 to 100 coins).   I've just checked and there are 86 recorded in the CCI at the moment.

If you are on Facebook and want to find out more about Celtic coins, I can recomend this group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2375591872472089

[leeshiel]

46 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said:

Thanks for sharing the video, it gives the coin greater importance 😊.

Thank you,

What sort of value would you put on the coin please it's not for sale but it would be nice to have a ball park figure, the one that CR sold through auction started off at £1400  i don't know the hammer price as they dont publish them but it's condition wasn't a patch on mine

Edited November 22, 2022 by leeshiel

[leeshiel]

4 hours ago, DCCR said:

Nice find Lee 🙂.  ABC is 12 years old and many of the rarity ratings are out of date now.  If it was listed as scarce in a Chris Rudd auction then it's at least scarce now (51 to 100 coins).   I've just checked and there are 86 recorded in the CCI at the moment.

If you are on Facebook and want to find out more about Celtic coins, I can recomend this group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2375591872472089

Many thanks that group identified it,

Edited November 22, 2022 by leeshiel

[Al Kowsky]

19 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

Thank you,

What sort of value would you put on the coin please it's not for sale but it would be nice to have a ball park figure, the one that CR sold through auction started off at £1400  i don't no the hammer price as they dont publish them but it's condition wasn't a patch on mine

I think the best way to evaluate Celtic coins is to see what prices they are fetching in European auctions, where the real market is. American auction results can be misleading because the collector base here is small but growing. An excellent source to explore is the website www.celticcoins.com, where prices realized on Chris Rudd auctions are available. I downloaded the entire John Fellows Collection, Part 2, Auction 170 . May 17, 2020, that includes the prices realized. My coin type & yours were in that auction, & listed as Rare 😊. I bought my ABC 1022 from a CNG auction, slabbed by NGC: AU, Strike 5/5, Surface 4/5. 

[leeshiel]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:15 PM, Al Kowsky said:

I think the best way to evaluate Celtic coins is to see what prices they are fetching in European auctions, where the real market is. American auction results can be misleading because the collector base here is small but growing. An excellent source to explore is the website www.celticcoins.com, where prices realized on Chris Rudd auctions are available. I downloaded the entire John Fellows Collection, Part 2, Auction 170 . May 17, 2020, that includes the prices realized. My coin type & yours were in that auction, & listed as Rare 😊. I bought my ABC 1022 from a CNG auction, slabbed by NGC: AU, Strike 5/5, Surface 4/5. 

Many thanks it's hard to find prices this coin is from the same die

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/chris-rudd/catalogue-id-chris-10019/lot-d7f46bca-8d49-4c6a-8413-a8b201010ba9

But all i can find out is it started at £1400 i know CR will put a come and get me estimate on it so i would presume it went for more, in the listing it states (EF, large flan of golden gold, sharply struck, full horse. Heavyweight, handsome, hard to find in such superlative condition. SCARCE)

I guess the only way to find it's true value is to put it through auction but going on the above i would imagine 3/4£K.
 

Edited November 23, 2022 by leeshiel

[John Conduitt]

24 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

Many thanks it's hard to find prices this coin is from the same die

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/chris-rudd/catalogue-id-chris-10019/lot-d7f46bca-8d49-4c6a-8413-a8b201010ba9

But all i can find out is it started at £1400 i know CR will put a come and get me estimate on it so i would presume it went for more, in the listing it states (EF, large flan of golden gold, sharply struck, full horse. Heavyweight, handsome, hard to find in such superlative condition. SCARCE) if that coin is EF my coin is VF,

I guess the only way to find it's true value is to put it through auction but going on the above i would imagine 2.5/3£K.
 

You could email Liz Cottam at Chris Rudd for an idea of value. They would know the differences in value based on condition and dies. Most coins in their auctions go for at least double the estimates, although of course, the ones that go higher have condition and rarity.

Edited November 22, 2022 by John Conduitt

[leeshiel]

4 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

You could email Liz Cottam at Chris Rudd for an idea of value. They would know the differences in value based on condition and dies. Most coins in their auctions go for at least double the estimates, although of course, the ones that go higher have condition and rarity.

Thanks John i did email them when i first discovered it, they wont tell you anything unless you send them the coin to look at,

 

8 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

although of course, the ones that go higher have condition and rarity.

According to the listing above from 2018 my coin is scarce and in better condition.

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, leeshiel said:

Thanks John i did email them when i first discovered it, they wont tell you anything unless you send them the coin to look at,

Ok fair enough. That makes sense. They need to know it's real.

Scarcity is tricky to value. Most Celtic coins are at least scarce. In ABC, only two of 16 uninscribed Corieltauvi gold staters are common, with most very or extremely rare. But all 16 could be said to be part of the same series. So scarcity is entirely dependent on categorisation, and a 'scarce' variety is some way from the rarest.

You're right about the condition. But valuing on condition is not easy, since prices are rather open ended with the highest condition coins. Roma sold this (previously Chris Rudd) for £3,200 in September, about £4,000 with fees. This one sold for £1,400 at Spink in 2014, so that's £1,750 with fees. This from Leu was a similar price last year, but a worse coin. Again, a similar price from CNG in 2020, while this was a little less in 2018 (both good coins). AH Baldwins sold a much worse one in 2016 for £380. So that's quite a range, although it's hard to see it being less than £1,750, while £4,000 is the top end.

Edited November 22, 2022 by John Conduitt

[leeshiel]

36 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Ok fair enough. That makes sense. They need to know it's real.

Scarcity is tricky to value. Most Celtic coins are at least scarce. In ABC, only two of 16 uninscribed Corieltauvi gold staters are common, with most very or extremely rare. But all 16 could be said to be part of the same series. So scarcity is entirely dependent on categorisation, and a 'scarce' variety is some way from the rarest.

You're right about the condition. But valuing on condition is not easy, since prices are rather open ended with the highest condition coins. Roma sold this (previously Chris Rudd) for £3,200 in September, about £4,000 with fees. This one sold for £1,400 at Spink in 2014, so that's £1,750 with fees. This from Leu was a similar price last year, but a worse coin. Again, a similar price from CNG in 2020, while this was a little less in 2018 (both good coins). AH Baldwins sold a much worse one in 2016 for £380. So that's quite a range, although it's hard to see it being less than £1,750, while £4,000 is the top end.

Thank you for taking time to look and provide information John appreciated,

It's all confusing to me all coins you have listed are Spink reverence 29 fair enough my coin is Spink reverence 29, but every coin is different to mine in one way or another so how do you determine what coin is rare ?,

DCCR stated 86 coins recorded how many variants out of the 86 is known, maybe i am missing the obvious,

Take this coin for instance just a quick glance it's totally different.

[John Conduitt]

19 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

Thank you for taking time to look and provide information John appreciated,

It's all confusing to me all coins you have listed are Spink reverence 29 fair enough my coin is Spink reverence 29, but every coin is different to mine in one way or another so how do you determine what coin is rare ?,

DCCR stated 86 coins recorded how many variants out of the 86 is known, maybe i am missing the obvious,

Take this coin for instance just a quick glance it's totally different.

This is what I meant when I was talking about categorisation driving 'rarity'. It's subjective and rather arbitrary.

You could take the view that every single Corieltauvi gold stater is the same. They're all wreath-horse issues. I would be surprised if the Corieltauvi didn't believe that. They're hammered coins, made from dies cut by hand, so every time a new die was cut, it differed a little to the last. That wasn't a different coin, they just needed to replace a worn die. But over 50 years, you might see quite a difference between the first and the last.

You could, instead, divide them up by 'major' differences. This is how we get the 'South Ferriby' and 'North East Coast' types. The Corieltauvi didn't call them that, so we have no idea if they saw a distinction. But someone might want to collect one of each type, particularly if one can be shown to be 'early' (North East Coast) and another 'late' (South Ferriby), or from one mint rather than another. That drives up the prices of the rarest.

Spink has several types of 'early uninscribed coinage' (where they confusingly lump together all the tribes). That includes S 28 and 29, which are both 'North East Coast' types. On top of that, they have 6 specifically Corieltauvi types, S390-5, including South Ferriby.

ABC has 16 Corieltauvi gold stater types. That includes 8 'North East Coast' Types (ABC 1716, 1719, 1722, 1725, 1728, 1731, 1734, 1740). So already, just by using ABC instead of Spink, your North East Coast stater is rarer, simply because the total number of coins is divided by more types.

You can go even further. Each die was different, so you could categorise by those. Chris Rudd will often tell you how many of a particular die are known. But with coins where there are less than 50 known, you might find you have 50 varieties, each unique and therefore priceless. But of course, no-one would collect all 50, so they're not priceless, and they're grouped into types based on similarities.

Your coin, then, could be described as very common or excessively rare, depending on how it's categorised. That doesn't help with the value. We have no way of knowing how many people want just one Corieltauvi gold stater of any type, and how many want one of every single die. We don't know if they use Spink, or Chris Rudd, or Van Arsdell. So to get an idea of value, you can just look at past sales of as many coins as you can find in the same/similar category, because that's what anyone buying your coin would do.

It's also worth noting that you are right, and the Spink coin does have a pelleted sun below the horse, which is not meant to be a feature of ABC 1722. So perhaps Spink got the attribution wrong. A horse left with a pelleted sun below could be ABC 1728, while the star under the horse's head is seen in ABC 1734. (Both are still S 29). Those are 'excessively rare' and 'common' respectively. Did they buyer think it was ABC 1722, 1728 or 1734? Or another, unpublished type? Or did they not care? The Roma coin, on the other hand, looks like a die match for the ABC 1722 coin.

Yours is a little odd in comparison. The horse's front legs are too high up and out of proportion to the horse, and the roundel in front of it is strangely deformed - it's missing a bit but not because it's the edge of the flan or a weak strike. The flan is rather flat, the edges are rounded with no cracks, and the metal somewhat pale. It still looks like ABC 1722 but is very different to the Roma version.

[DonnaML]

Do I understand correctly that if one finds a single ancient coin through metal detection in the UK, even if it's gold or silver, it doesn't have to be declared as treasure? If that's correct, then how many coins does it take to constitute "treasure"? 

[John Conduitt]

19 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Do I understand correctly that if one finds a single ancient coin through metal detection in the UK, even if it's gold or silver, it doesn't have to be declared as treasure? If that's correct, then how many coins does it take to constitute "treasure"? 

Yes. The Treasure Act 1996 requires finders to report any find of 2 coins over 300 years old containing more than 10% gold or silver, or 10 coins if less than 10%. Still, it's better to report any coin to the Portable Antiquities Scheme, as it will increase it's value.

Before 1996, they had to believe the owner hadn't just lost the coin, so you'd need a few coins to suggest they intended to return for them.

Edited November 23, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This is what I meant when I was talking about categorisation driving 'rarity'. It's subjective and rather arbitrary.

You could take the view that every single Corieltauvi gold stater is the same. They're all wreath-horse issues. I would be surprised if the Corieltauvi didn't believe that. They're hammered coins, made from dies cut by hand, so every time a new die was cut, it differed a little to the last. That wasn't a different coin, they just needed to replace a worn die. But over 50 years, you might see quite a difference between the first and the last.

You could, instead, divide them up by 'major' differences. This is how we get the 'South Ferriby' and 'North East Coast' types. The Corieltauvi didn't call them that, so we have no idea if they saw a distinction. But someone might want to collect one of each type, particularly if one can be shown to be 'early' (North East Coast) and another 'late' (South Ferriby), or from one mint rather than another. That drives up the prices of the rarest.

Spink has several types of 'early uninscribed coinage' (where they confusingly lump together all the tribes). That includes S 28 and 29, which are both 'North East Coast' types. On top of that, they have 6 specifically Corieltauvi types, S390-5, including South Ferriby.

ABC has 16 Corieltauvi gold stater types. That includes 8 'North East Coast' Types (ABC 1716, 1719, 1722, 1725, 1728, 1731, 1734, 1740). So already, just by using ABC instead of Spink, your North East Coast stater is rarer, simply because the total number of coins is divided by more types.

You can go even further. Each die was different, so you could categorise by those. Chris Rudd will often tell you how many of a particular die are known. But with coins where there are less than 50 known, you might find you have 50 varieties, each unique and therefore priceless. But of course, no-one would collect all 50, so they're not priceless, and they're grouped into types based on similarities.

Your coin, then, could be described as very common or excessively rare, depending on how it's categorised. That doesn't help with the value. We have no way of knowing how many people want just one Corieltauvi gold stater of any type, and how many want one of every single die. We don't know if they use Spink, or Chris Rudd, or Van Arsdell. So to get an idea of value, you can just look at past sales of as many coins as you can find in the same/similar category, because that's what anyone buying your coin would do.

It's also worth noting that you are right, and the Spink coin does have a pelleted sun below the horse, which is not meant to be a feature of ABC 1722. So perhaps Spink got the attribution wrong. A horse left with a pelleted sun below could be ABC 1728, while the star under the horse's head is seen in ABC 1734. (Both are still S 29). Those are 'excessively rare' and 'common' respectively. Did they buyer think it was ABC 1722, 1728 or 1734? Or another, unpublished type? Or did they not care? The Roma coin, on the other hand, looks like a die match for the ABC 1722 coin.

Yours is a little odd in comparison. The horse's front legs are too high up and out of proportion to the horse, and the roundel in front of it is strangely deformed - it's missing a bit but not because it's the edge of the flan or a weak strike. The flan is rather flat, the edges are rounded with no cracks, and the metal somewhat pale. It still looks like ABC 1722 but is very different to the Roma version.

John, You make a good point about "categorizing" ancient coins ☺️. Categorizing Celtic coins is still in it's infancy & will grow as more collectors get involved in the hobby. Chris Rudd has furthered this phenomenon with British Celtic coins. Over the years I've witnessed this phenomenon with Roman provincial coinage. A pioneer in this area was the late Michel Prieur, & today it's growing with Antiochian coinage thanks to Richard McAlee. After getting his landmark book The Coins of Roman Antioch published by CNG in 2007, McAlee has published two more supplements to the original book, & I'm sure it won't end there. When we grow we learn.

[leeshiel]

13 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This is what I meant when I was talking about categorisation driving 'rarity'. It's subjective and rather arbitrary.

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation John you have put to words my thoughts,

I think the way forward to learn more about this coin is to contact Dr Sills https://www.arch.ox.ac.uk/people/dr-john-a-sills

Thank for your time and help i will update the thread if i get to learn more.

[DCCR]

23 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation John you have put to words my thoughts,

I think the way forward to learn more about this coin is to contact Dr Sills https://www.arch.ox.ac.uk/people/dr-john-a-sills

Thank for your time and help i will update the thread if i get to learn more.

What is it you still want to know?  John Sills won't value it for you and will probably just direct you to Liz at Chris Rudd Ltd.

Edited November 23, 2022 by DCCR

[leeshiel]

14 minutes ago, DCCR said:

What is it you still want to know?  John Sills won't value it for you and will probably just direct you to Liz at Chris Rudd Ltd.

I am wanting to know how many coins recorded struck from similar/same dies its OK saying 86 is recorded but most of them are from different dies,

 

40 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

learn more about this coin is to contact Dr Sills https://www.arch.ox.ac.uk/people/dr-john-a-sills

I wasn't going to ask for value, if you take time to read through the thread CR wants to view the coin before they will provide any information and i am not prepared to send them the coin at this stage.

[DCCR]

7 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

I wasn't going to ask for value, if you take time to read through the thread CR wants to view the coin before they will provide any information and i am not prepared to send them the coin at this stage.

Fair enough - I just thought it would save you some time if value was the information you were after. 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by DCCR

[John Conduitt]

4 hours ago, leeshiel said:

I am wanting to know how many coins recorded struck from similar/same dies its OK saying 86 is recorded but most of them are from different dies,

Don't forget that the obverse and reverse dies will have different volumes. If there was only one 'Corieltauvi stater' type, there would be a sort of relay of dies from start to finish. If the obverse die lasted longer, you could have 10 matches for that and only 3 for the reverse. One side of the coin is rarer than the other, while the combination of the two might be unique. This would be true of many coins, so they would be common in being unique.