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Posted (edited)

Here's another token , one of my favorite places in UK last time I visited Bath, I couldn't think of a better souvenir than this  and my picture of the Pump room/entrance...Bath.thumb.jpg.a1ba35b64431b3136e3ca61dfed7fd0b.jpg
[IMG]

Somersetshire Bath Conder Halfpenny D&H 64  • Obv: Shield of Arms of the City of Bath • Rev: View of New Rooms, Bath • Edge: Plain,  circa 1795.


IMG20170801110158.jpg

 

DH.Somerset.116.005.jfif

Edited by Ancient Aussie
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Very nice. A great souvenir.

Conder tokens feature some impressive images of buildings. This one was struck by Samuel Birchall, who authored the first token catalogue (before Conder).

Halfpenny Conder Token, 1793

image.png.e0b98f7e94a31d719a9020b0164bd979.png

Soho, Birmingham. Copper, 29mm, 11.8g. Bust of Bishop Blaise in mitre, holding a wool comb; SUCCESS TO THE YORKSHIRE WOOLLEN MANUFACTORY. Aerial long perspective exterior view of Leeds Coloured Cloth Hall, with other houses in the distance and a hill on right; LEEDS HALFPENNY, date in exergue. Edge: Plain; PAYABLE AT H. BROWNBILL'S SILVERSMITH (Birchall L 12, P.47).

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22 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Very nice. A great souvenir.

Conder tokens feature some impressive images of buildings. This one was struck by Samuel Birchall, who authored the first token catalogue (before Conder).

Halfpenny Conder Token, 1793

image.png.e0b98f7e94a31d719a9020b0164bd979.png

Soho, Birmingham. Copper, 29mm, 11.8g. Bust of Bishop Blaise in mitre, holding a wool comb; SUCCESS TO THE YORKSHIRE WOOLLEN MANUFACTORY. Aerial long perspective exterior view of Leeds Coloured Cloth Hall, with other houses in the distance and a hill on right; LEEDS HALFPENNY, date in exergue. Edge: Plain; PAYABLE AT H. BROWNBILL'S SILVERSMITH (Birchall L 12, P.47).

Brilliant portrait, and terrific perspective. Thanks for sharing.

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Please receive criminally belated thanks, @Ancient Aussie, for what I'm hoping will grow as a thread.  From here, Conders are some of the funnest modern anything I know of.  (Caveat: I don't even have pics of the two I have; one of Samuel Johnson and one 'Am I Not a Man and a Brother.'  --Thank you, Johnson was a vociferous abolitionist a generation before Wilberforce.)  

Here's a York Conder I'd really like ...but examples as good as you guys', or this, have been going up for a loooong time.

Image 2 - 1795 YORK, CLIFFORD’S TOWER Conder Token (YORK BUILT 1223 edge) (D310)

Image 1 - 1795 YORK, CLIFFORD’S TOWER Conder Token (YORK BUILT 1223 edge) (D310)

This is a good time to give a plug to the seller, on UK ebay.  ...It is the least expensive one I found online, in anything comparable to this condition.   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144479370856?hash=item21a3a43e68:g:W54AAOSwzbpiJiFd

Thank you, York Minster on one side, and Clifford's Tower (the keep of one of two castles in York) on the other.  In the latter case, the Conder gets the date of the present, masonry fabric wrong by most of a century and a half, although the motte it sits on makes it one of William the Conqueror's earliest castles.  The quatrefoil design, c. 1245, is a primary example of Henry III's architectural savvy in a specifically secular capacity.  

Witness the gallows in the foreground.  The keep is likely named after Roger de Clifford (a collateral ancestor), who, after an initial revolt against Edward II in 1322 (...oops, ditto), was hung over the ramparts in chains.  

And taking @Ancient Aussie's cue, here are a couple of pics.  The one of Clifford's Tower is from the front, with the rectangular forebuilding.

York_Minster_Cathedral_%289816926305%29.jpg

Clifford's Tower (5259021070).jpg

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15 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

Please receive criminally belated thanks, @Ancient Aussie, for what I'm hoping will grow as a thread.  From here, Conders are some of the funnest modern anything I know of.  (Caveat: I don't even have pics of the two I have; one of Samuel Johnson and one 'Am I Not a Man and a Brother.'  --Thank you, Johnson was a vociferous abolitionist a generation before Wilberforce.)  

Here's a York Conder I'd really like ...but examples as good as you guys', or this, have been going up for a loooong time.

Image 2 - 1795 YORK, CLIFFORD’S TOWER Conder Token (YORK BUILT 1223 edge) (D310)

Image 1 - 1795 YORK, CLIFFORD’S TOWER Conder Token (YORK BUILT 1223 edge) (D310)

This is a good time to give a plug to the seller, on UK ebay.  ...It is the least expensive one I found online, in anything comparable to this condition.   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144479370856?hash=item21a3a43e68:g:W54AAOSwzbpiJiFd

Thank you, York Minster on one side, and Clifford's Tower (the keep of one of two castles in York) on the other.  In the latter case, the Conder gets the date of the present, masonry fabric wrong by most of a century and a half, although the motte it sits on makes it one of William the Conqueror's earliest castles.  The quatrefoil design, c. 1245, is a primary example of Henry III's architectural savvy in a specifically secular capacity.  

Witness the gallows in the foreground.  The keep is likely named after Roger de Clifford (a collateral ancestor), who, after an initial revolt against Edward II in 1322 (...oops, ditto), was hung over the ramparts in chains.  

And taking @Ancient Aussie's cue, here are a couple of pics.  The one of Clifford's Tower is from the front, with the rectangular forebuilding.

York_Minster_Cathedral_%289816926305%29.jpg

Clifford's Tower (5259021070).jpg

Fantastic token, my favorite and my first token after visiting York and visiting Clifford's tower.

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Posted (edited)

Alnwick_Castle_02.jpg.cdf0e46bd0c81d382153a2119279f7d7.jpgHere's another you guy's might be interested in, intend visiting on my next trip to the UK.  Pic courtesy Wikipedia.

 Skidmore’s Globe Series Alnwick Castle London (Middlesex) copper Conder penny token dated 1797. Obverse: View of Alnwick Castle with legend: “ALNWICK  CASTLE • NORTHUMB.D” with the die engraver's name: "JACOBS" below. Reverse: A globe, on which "BRITAIN" is indicated, supported by a three-legged stand with a rose and thistle each side, and legend: "BRITISH • PENNY." above and the date: "1797" in the exergue. Edge inscription: “I PROMISE TO PAY ON DEMAND THE BEARER ONE PENNY x”. Listed in “Dalton & Hamer” as “R - RARE”. These were produced by Denton, the London coin dealer, for sale to collectors. The die broke very early on in production leaving this piece more rare than the others. Good collectable condition but heavily polished in the past, see photograph.

D&H Middlesex No: 131. Diameter 35.3mm.

DH.Middlesex.0131.001.JPG

Edited by Ancient Aussie
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@Ancient Aussie, that's a Brilliant conder, a type I'd never seen before.

...First, you're due the disclaimer that I haven't bought that one of York; from here, it's a lllLittle steep.  But back to Percys and Alnwick Castle, I posted this in Medieval not long ago.

 

Meanwhile, I just might opt for the York one, and am gearing up to go back to actively looking for more Conders, generally!

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51 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

@Ancient Aussie, that's a Brilliant conder, a type I'd never seen before.

...First, you're due the disclaimer that I haven't bought that one of York; from here, it's a lllLittle steep.  But back to Percys and Alnwick Castle, I posted this in Medieval not long ago.

 

Meanwhile, I just might opt for the York one, and am gearing up to go back to actively looking for more Conders, generally!

It looks like a reasonable price, I paid about that for this one a few years back.1991901819_CliffordsTower.jpg.489906aee6546d2fd1772085c4471d52.jpg

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Hey @Ancient Aussie,

Well, it's Gummy Bear Friday!  --Nope, that was a spontaneous verbal tic; not only isn't it Friday, even in this time zone; I don't especially care for Gummy Bears.  

Except that between your sage advice, and a quick look at the dealer's website on UK ebay, I nabbed it.  With a note, telling her that it would be a joy to visit her shop in Nottingham (...never mind York), and have the honour of meeting her in person.

The truth is that even from here, where the convergence of English castles and 18th-century stuff is concerned, there's a little bit of backstory.  I have a couple of original, folio prints of the engravings the Buck brothers did of them over the 1720's and '30's.  I don't even have the room to have them on the walls, and neither is of Clifford's Tower.  Making this halfpenny only that much cooler.

You're owed cordial thanks for your valued help in tipping the scales.

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13 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

it would be a joy to visit her shop in Nottingham

Sounds like you are in a great position to visit most of these castles and ancient ruins, I envy you and glad you purchased that marvelous token look forward to seeing more as your collection grows.

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If you had to choose, you should definitely visit York rather than Nottingham 😂 Alnwick is another couple of hours further north from York, so perhaps a bit far unless you're on the way down from Edinburgh or into Harry Potter.

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21 minutes ago, Ancient Aussie said:

Sounds like you are in a great position to visit most of these castles and ancient ruins, I envy you and glad you purchased that marvelous token look forward to seeing more as your collection grows.

@Ancient Aussie, sorry for my customary ellipticality!  Actually, I'm on the west coast of the US.  I'd need a globe to see which of us is farther away!  ...But if I was ever back in the UK, I'd definitely spend some quality time in York, along with seeing Alnwick and Conisborough, which is mmmMaybe my favourite (<--some code-switching there) castle in the north.  ...As a kid, I got a mere week each in London and, firstly, a largely rural part of Kent.  --Kent was lovely, with Cool churches (and brasses), and lots of sheep, who tended to get right of way on the roads.  In London, we only got two hours in the British Museum --frustrating as get-out-- but we did see the Tower.  It was the summer of 1973, and the Beefeater leading the tour took great delight in directing our attention to the Water Gate.  :<}

I need to give another plug to the dealer in Nottingham.   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144479370856?hash=item21a3a43e68:g:W54AAOSwzbpiJiFd  Sent her a brief note with the order, to which she sent a resonantly gracious reply.  Also took a look at her shop.  I got the distinct impression that it would be terrific fun to visit in person.

...Now I'm wishing there were pics of the two Buck prints.  ...But should we be staying with Conders?  Alternately, it would be terrific fun to see a thread for Conders more generally.

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Posted (edited)

Fascinating thread. Question: What exactly qualifies an 18th-century token as a "Conder" token as opposed to "not a Conder token"? Does it have to have been listed in the Conder catalog? Does the term include both tokens used as circulating currency and tokens produced for collectors? Also, do 17th-century tokens qualify as Conder tokens?

Edited by DonnaML
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10 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Fascinating thread. Question: What exactly qualifies an 18th-century token as a "Conder" token as opposed to "not a Conder token"? Does it have to have been listed in the Conder catalog? Does the term include both tokens used as circulating currency and tokens produced for collectors? Also, do 17th-century tokens qualify as Conder tokens?

Technically, yes it should be in Conder's catalogue. But I think collectors go by anything in D&H (Dalton and Hamer), which superceded Conder. Really, it should be any token from the late C18 and early C19. Tokens from the C17 are just C17 trade tokens.

This does include some made for collectors at the time - even Conder and Birchall made them, with small variations to make some rarer.

Edited by John Conduitt
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While where on the subject of UK castles 😃 this is another token I could not resist.

County (Warwickshire) copper penny token dated 1796. Obverse: View of Caesar's Tower in Kenilworth Castle with legend and date with legend: "FIRMUM IN VITA NIHIL - MDCCXCVI". Reverse: A cypher of "PK" in script in centre with legend: "WARWICKSHIRE PROMISSORY PENNY". Edge inscription: "I PROMISE TO PAY ON DEMAND THE BEARER ONE PENNY". .

D&H Warwickshire No: 6. Diameter 33.1mm.

image.jpeg.6a6e5040de211b55b9e03e751310da1a.jpeg

Below is a pic of Kelinworth castle as it is now.

kenilworth-garden-and-keep.jpg.74b943a31cfb76a315d7475b81be39be.jpg

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Very apt questions, @DonnaML.  Since I'm right here (while streaming NPR coverage of, ahem, certain hearings), I can give you an abjectly layman's-eye view.  As in, never having seen a copy of Conder.

As a genre, they're pretty emphatically the late 18th-century ones.  The 17th-century ones are a different beast.  What the two genres conspicuously have in common is that they were both privately issued, in the names of the firms (or towns) that issued them.  In both cases (Oop, two answers to this, probably better than this), they were a direct response to shortages of available small change.  In many ways, they anticipate the American 'Hard Times' tokens and the more commercial side of similar series during the American Civil War.

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5 minutes ago, Ancient Aussie said:

While where on the subject of UK castles 😃 this is another token I could not resist.

County (Warwickshire) copper penny token dated 1796. Obverse: View of Caesar's Tower in Kenilworth Castle with legend and date with legend: "FIRMUM IN VITA NIHIL - MDCCXCVI". Reverse: A cypher of "PK" in script in centre with legend: "WARWICKSHIRE PROMISSORY PENNY". Edge inscription: "I PROMISE TO PAY ON DEMAND THE BEARER ONE PENNY". .

D&H Warwickshire No: 6. Diameter 33.1mm.

image.jpeg.6a6e5040de211b55b9e03e751310da1a.jpeg

Below is a pic of Kelinworth castle as it is now.

kenilworth-garden-and-keep.jpg.74b943a31cfb76a315d7475b81be39be.jpg

Aaaah, That's the Stuff!!!  Many thanks, @Ancient Aussie, for turning me on to another type with another favourite castle!

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I’ve never properly photographed my “condor” tokens, so forgive the phone photos:

4A1DE3F2-2C42-427F-B5EF-5A92CE6111D8.jpeg.8e801ea50ba43b542db5f57e78924ba2.jpeg

51D9C40F-1B3B-4794-B434-58C266FF5E82.jpeg.9685bcc5c8bff2e65c50d04a8e67d1be.jpeg

I did a year’s study abroad in Norwich as an undergrad, so when I found the token with Norwich castle, I had to grab it.  I have since started gathering other tokens from Norwich as well (including one of Coleman’s before they became famed for just mustard…. But that’s not architectural so I’ll leave it).

I spent much more time living in Durham, but as far as I can tell, there aren’t any tokens from there (or at least not any good ones…)

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@FitzNigel, those are The Stuff.  Needing it that all of them are Norwich.  It would be fun to find out why you focussed on the town.  Genealogy, maybe? 

Here's the entry for Norwich Castle on the inimitable 'Gatehouse' site, from the UK.

http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English sites/1974.html

And here's a pic, from Wiki, of the early Norman stone 'tower / hall keep.'  Largely resurfaced in the 19th century.  But if it was anywhere in my neighborhood, I'd be happy.

Norwich_Castle_keep%2C_2009.jpg

 

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my connection to Norwich is purely from the year abroad I spent there.  No genealogical connection.  Despite the newer facade, the castle museum is excellent (although note it has been some 15 years since I have been there). I recall the roof tour being well worth the extra cost because you go excellent view of the city.  The damage done from WWII was really noticeable from up there.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

@FitzNigel, if I ever find one of Norwich, you'll have your revenge!  :<}

Yep, you got that right; I just quoted myself.

Because, late last night, I went trawling on UK ebay for a Norwich Conder.  

And here's where I'm wanting this to wind up being The Thread, for Conders generally.  Along with, to @DonnaML's point, English tokens generally, going back to the farthing ones of the Commonwealth and early Restoration.  Especially since, while some prospects for Norwich ones did turn up, I wound up going elsewhere.  ...Resonantly confirming how cool Conders are generally, even as I made inroads into the 17th-century ones that I didn't dare to take seriously, up until now.

Just Freaking Watch This.  Yep, bought all of 'em. 

Image 1 - Halfpenny token - Lackington 1794 booksellers - Middlesex D&amp;H#353

Image 2 - Halfpenny token - Lackington 1794 booksellers - Middlesex D&amp;H#353

One I've wanted for decades.  The London bookseller, James Lackington.  The earlier of two ha'p'nies he issued from London, with the facing portrait, evoking a painting of Boswell in his last years.

There's a great bit in Lackington's memoirs, from The Oxford Book of Literary Anecdotes, where he and his wife were "very short of money," and she sent him to the market with "but half-a-crown" to "buy a Christmas dinner."  The rest needs some real quotation:

"[....A]nd off I went for that purpose; but in the way I saw an old bookshop, and I could not resist the temptation of going in; intending only to spend sixpence or ninepence out of my half-a-crown.  But I stumbled upon Young's Night Thoughts [noted, for instance, in Johnson's Lives of the Poets; his last major literary work, c. 1778] --forgot my dinner--down went my half-crown--and I hastened home, vastly delighted with the acquisition.  When my wife asked me where was our Christmas dinner, I told her it was in my pocket.

[Fast forward a little:]

"'And so,' said she, 'instead of buying a dinner, I suppose you have, as you have done before, been buying books with the money?'  'And I think,' said I, 'that I have acted wisely; for had I bought a dinner we should have eaten it tomorrrow, and the pleasure would have been soon over, but should we live fifty years longer, we have the Night Thoughts to feast upon.' This was too powerul an argument to admit of any further debate; in short, my wife was convinced."

...Weeeell, maybe, and maybe not.  As an excerpt, this comes across as referring to a still early phase of their marriage, and there's no mention of little details like children, existing or anticipated.  But it's great as background to how he made his fortune by being "the cheapest bookseller in the world."  ...The Conder will always remind me of every independent bookseller I ever knew.  Even in my town, a couple of them are still afloat.

...Right, then there was this.  Yep, from a decade and more after the run of these.  Commemorating the Battle of Trafalgar (with a recognizable profile of Nelson), but issued in the year of Wellington's Peninsuar Campaign.

Image 1 - Halfpenny token 19th century - British Naval Halppenny 1812 - Non-local W.1590

Image 2 - Halfpenny token 19th century - British Naval Halppenny 1812 - Non-local W.1590

After which, I stumbled onto my first ever, Ever farthing token from the 1650's (/Commonwealth /Protectorate).  I had to need it that, Calvinism be damned (--can I say that? this from a self-described Christian and recovering preacher's kid), this features the "3 [sic --very cool in its own right] cupps [also sic; also very cool for the post-Shakespearian, but no less archaic modern English]" in Woodstock, Oxfordshire.  The county was a bastion of pro-Stuart Toryism, down to Johnson's brief tenure at the eponymous university in, what, the 1720's.

Image 1 - 17th century farthing token - At the 3 cupps 1653 Woodstock - Oxfordshire D#249

Image 2 - 17th century farthing token - At the 3 cupps 1653 Woodstock - Oxfordshire D#249

And finally, there was this one, my first ever Restoration example from, Thank you Very Much, London.  The condition is conventionally atrocious, but who could resist The King's Head --where you can still recognize which king it is?  ...Did Pepys go there?  I don't have more than an abridgement of the Diary, and still have to find out.

Image 1 - 17th century farthing token - The Kings Head Tavern - London D#510

Image 2 - 17th century farthing token - The Kings Head Tavern - London D#510

...Between all of this, I'm feeling more of my Englishness (easily a parliamentary majority of the net total) than I have in a good while.

And why not?  While writing this, the following appeared from the wrapper of a little Dove dark chocolate, appropriated from a function at work:

"Be fearlessly authentic."  To which I can only add,

...Because Everyone You Know is aggregately, but authentically whatever the F-ck they are.  (Thank you, from here, that's the only way 'authenticity' escapes the kind of structural revisionism that renders it a one-word oxymoron.)

Edited by JeandAcre
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Posted (edited)

For the record, this one was surprisingly inexpensive.  Best of luck!

(Edit:) and Thank you for your graciousness about my veering off the subject of the thread!

 

Edited by JeandAcre
One more "f," please....
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