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Probus - Cuirassed?


Restitutor
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Hi all - looking for some very specific ID help on this Probus:

image.png.54d17f8829dbce25a02f8960860b5092.png

Current attribution is RIC 490, which I believe is accurate. But from there, Wildwinds shows 2 examples, one with Probus described as cuirassed, the other, lacking that description but with the reverse having a star in the right field. When I first made the format and description on my image, above, I hadn't noticed this peculiar difference.

Here is the image from Wildwinds that is described as "Radiate, mantled, and cuirassed bust left..." with the reverse "Q to left"
image.png.677f0089313512665f4a186adc670fa7.png

Here is the one where Probus is not described as cuirassed, simply "radiate bust left, wearing imperial mantle..." but with a star on the reverse:

image.png.d5a69b34c83eec624e4e0dc89e33af69.png

I'm inclined to think mine is the first example, with the emperor cuirassed, but frankly I can't make heads or tails where the difference is on the obverse between the two examples shown on WW. Additionally, the 'Q' on the reverse on mine syncs up with the second example rather than the first. Mine is clearly lacking a star on the reverse unless it has somehow rubbed off. I suppose a third option is that both versions should say he is cuirassed, and perhaps just an oversight on WW.

image.png.ae8a629346cec5caa1828b89b74bd035.png

What do you think? 

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I don't think the cuirass or lack of it is meant to be a distinguishing feature. It's very common for descriptions to vary on such things. The two entries have the same reference in RIC, but there's an anomaly in that there's a variety with a star in the right field and one without, which would ordinarily get assigned a different number. Ocre doesn't even mention the star but two of the examples have it http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.5.pro.490

Edited by John Conduitt
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None of these are cuirassed. They are "Radiate bust left in imperial mantle, holding sceptre surmounted by eagle". The difference between the lack of star and star is that the coins without the star are allocated to the 9th emission of Ticinum whereas the coins with the star are from the 10th emission. The wildwinds coin without the star is actually from my collection. WIldwinds has incorrectly attributed with a mention of cuirass,

 

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13 minutes ago, maridvnvm said:

None of these are cuirassed. They are "Radiate bust left in imperial mantle, holding sceptre surmounted by eagle". The difference between the lack of star and star is that the coins without the star are allocated to the 9th emission of Ticinum whereas the coins with the star are from the 10th emission. The wildwinds coin without the star is actually from my collection. WIldwinds has incorrectly attributed with a mention of cuirass,

 

Oh that's cool! Your coin is famous! 😄 And thanks, I will keep my description without cuirassed.  

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Hopefully you are also aware that these these coins are part of the of coded EQVITI series from Ticinum.

Emission 9 - various obverse legends

E - CONCORD MILT reverse
Q -PROVIDENT AVG reverse
V - SALVS AVG reverse

I - MARTI PACIF reverse
T - PAX AVG or PAX AVGVSTI reverse
I - SECVRIT PERP reverse

A similar list can be breated for emission 10

 

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The types also come with wither the Imperial mantled bust as above or with Radiate, helmeted, cuirassed bust left, holding spear and shield.

Building a matched set with the same obverse legend and bust type can be done but it will take time an patience. I dabbled with the idea but my focus moved elsewhere.

normal_RI%20132ew%20img~0.jpg

normal_RI_132xi_img.jpg

The following not VIRTVS PROBI AVG....

normal_RI_132ct_img.jpg

RI_132sc_img.jpg

T MiISSING without a star..... I ran out of steam

RI%20132ho%20img.jpg

Edited by maridvnvm
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Wildwinds posts things as described by a seller and does not correct 'problems' that show dealers who don't understand "Radiate, mantled, and cuirassed bust left..." is not appropriate.  Probus is shown mantled honoring his civilian positions and cuirassed honoring his military position.  He does not mix up wardrobe components.   He does, however, have a huge number of different military suits.  Not all the military types are cuirassed.  There are variations in the consular attire/mantel coins but I don't find them nearly as varied. 

This is a military type without cuirass:

rs3030bb1497.jpg.3f2d6bdf6def6d130da0e12e256bd692.jpg

 

This has a cuirass without a cloak to make it hard to see:

rs2900bb1455.jpg.267ef427d7b082c23ac88a5a64e625cd.jpg

 

This strikes me as a cuirass with a cloak over it but I would not call it a mantle.  Perhaps some dealer would. 

rs2760bb1816.jpg.dd751b0682137d8fb778c22fc9b95755.jpg

 

Has any of the scholarly works on Probus tried to distinguish between the many, many styles?  That would strike me as way more work than any normal person would undertake. 

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26 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

Hey, I have one of those!  Glad to poach on the info in this thread. 🙂 

image.jpeg.c32c0232928ee6ba7749213980bc4a86.jpeg

It came in a group lot.

I'd call that a mantle or consular robe.  This one even has CONS II in the obverse legend.

rs3070bb1501.jpg.a41ec49b3a27237b6aa38a765d4ffc96.jpg

 

Each mint had variations but these all will have the eagle on scepter. I assume there was a lot of demand for good embroidery at the palace. 

rs2590bb1304.jpg.58e73dae06e9f85661209085a3bb3297.jpgrs2710bb1703.jpg.b2a92349cb016809a91e0d1d001962e1.jpgrs2940bb1271.jpg.bd62d0bb27736c389bdf5933ba02fb11.jpgrs2985aa1786.jpg.49bf1c92d961c03faeda987fccf900e1.jpg

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56 minutes ago, dougsmit said:

Has any of the scholarly works on Probus tried to distinguish between the many, many styles?  That would strike me as way more work than any normal person would undertake. 

Not sure it goes to your question - but this might be interesting for a list of bust styles (varieties from Serdica)

https://www.probuscoins.fr/bustes

I like your f19 from Ticinium.

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3 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

Hopefully you are also aware that these these coins are part of the of coded EQVITI series from Ticinum.

Emission 9 - various obverse legends

E - CONCORD MILT reverse
Q -PROVIDENT AVG reverse
V - SALVS AVG reverse

I - MARTI PACIF reverse
T - PAX AVG or PAX AVGVSTI reverse
I - SECVRIT PERP reverse

A similar list can be breated for emission 10

 

I was not! My wallet will not thank you for informing me of this, but my obsessive personality will, ha! Coins of Probus have quickly entered my top tier favorites, so I suppose I will start the journey of trying to collect all 6, with matching obverse 😅

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2 minutes ago, Restitutor said:

I was not! My wallet will not thank you for informing me of this, but my obsessive personality will, ha! Coins of Probus have quickly entered my top tier favorites, so I suppose I will start the journey of trying to collect all 6, with matching obverse 😅

Notes and references here: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/eqviti-coins-of-probus

62a3d9_204c2c9a296f42e8bb8cc3c2734882a4~

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I doubt anyone's wallet will be happy to know there is an AEQVITI set from Rome also.  I only have three of them. The code letter is placed in exergue between the R for Rome and the officina letter.  I have not seen the full set.   RIC lists an RIE that I would especially like to see. 

REB (2)

rs2510bb1587.jpg.feb89fd0c084d048704215349a3952a9.jpg

RVdelta (4)

rs2600bb1957.jpg.a652a14efa85bad3193d90884a638289.jpg

RIZ (7)

rs2520bb1806.jpg.82c2f8372fd4ec66439ce18a6d7cdb3a.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Restitutor said:

Wonderful, wonderful coins and a cool animation! 😃 That's awesome to see a full collection! Do we have any idea why Probus did this fun little scavenger hunt on his coins? 

several theories for why the mint would would have added the code, for a good review see this link: Gert Boersema

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