Ho-hum bronze Makedon Shield coin goes for $500!?!?

[Ryro]

If you are one of the two folks that thought this coin:

Was worth over $500, with juice, have I got some coins for you!

I thought the starting price of $60 was crazy. This is the most common type of MSC.

Here are different variations that I certainly didn't pay over $20 for!

Anyone else see any craziness as of late?

 

 

[Roman Collector]

Who bid on that?! It ain't me. I ain't no fortunate one, no.

 

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

Ryan, I think someone really love David J. Fleischmann or Tom Cederlind…

[DonnaML]

It's in very nice condition with a good provenance, but not $500 worth. So, not I! I did bid on and win a couple of Roman Alexandrian tetradrachms issued by Hadrian, but that was it.

[kirispupis]

While I agree that this is ridiculous, I'm now a bit confused on my own coins. 

This coin of mine looks to be exactly the same type.

Macedonian Interregnum
Macedonian mint 288-277 BCE
3.95 g Sear 6781
Ex Numiscorner

However, this type was described as from Macedon during the interregnum period, not from Salamis. This is what I have from Salamis.

Kings of Macedon, Philip III Arrhidaios (323-317 BC)
AE Half Unit 16mm, 3.25g, 2h
Salamis, under Nikokreon
Macedonian shield, facing gorgoneion on boss. R/ Helmet; kerykeion to lower l.
Price 3158
Ex London Ancient Coins

 

Is the difference the feathers in the helmet? Or is it the straps(?) underneath? These look like almost the same issues. Are these different types, or did I make a mistake and buy two of the same?

FWIW, I paid 160 euros for the first and 85 pounds for the second. I'm sure @Ryrowould consider these still high, but they're way below the CNG coin and I would argue the top one is in better condition, while the bottom probably would be without the brown gunk.

In terms of the CNG auction, I didn't participate. Coins there have been going high lately and I didn't see any I felt were worth pursuing. I also did a fair amount of damage between the last Savoca and Roma.

[Ryro]

45 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

It's in very nice condition with a good provenance, but not $500 worth. So, not I! I did bid on and win a couple of Roman Alexandrian tetradrachms issued by Hadrian, but that was it.

It didn't list any dates and I didn't recognize either name.

Gotta see these Hadrian Alexandrian tets🤓

[DonnaML]

21 minutes ago, Ryro said:

Gotta see these Hadrian Alexandrian tets🤓

When they arrive!

[Ed Snible]

7 hours ago, Ryro said:

Was worth over $500, with juice, have I got some coins for you!

I thought the starting price of $60 was crazy. This is the most common type of MSC.

 

 

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

While I agree that this is ridiculous, I'm now a bit confused on my own coins. 

...

However, this type was described as from Macedon during the interregnum period, not from Salamis. This is what I have from Salamis.

I knew David J Fleischmann, but I can't recall if I saw this coin in person.  In the photograph the obverse looks AU.  These coins must have circulated for a long time.  Usually they are awful.  Yours are nice, @Ryro, but Fleischmann's is nicer.

Here is one of my favorites:

Miletos or Mylasa, 1/4 AE Unit / AE13 (1.81 g)
Ref: Price 2065

This coin is one of the nicest I have seen, with a glossy patina and sharp reverse, although but the shield is still not as good as Fleischmann's.

@kirispupis No one knows exactly where or when these shield/helmet are from.  There is not even a good reason to be sure that B-A means "BASILEOS ALEXANDROU", or that they are all from the same time period.

The key work for understanding the shield bronzes is Katerini Liampi's 1986 „Zur Chronologie der sogenannten ‚anonymen’ makedonischen Münzen des späten 4.  Jhs . v. Chr.” (= “On the chronology of the so-called ‘anonymous’ Macedonian coins of the late 4th century BCE”).  There are English translations of various quality levels floating around the Internet.

Martin Price's work catalogs these because the B-A is probably in the name of Alexander, but it is hard to find them in the book as they are not together.  Here is a chart I made to help myself.

I did my own study of the gorgoneion bosses.  I found control marks that aren't in Price's catalog.  I also believe that Price #2063 and Price #2068a don't exist (and Price misread the coins.)  I don't want to go into these details here but I hope to write this up sometime.

I am working on a chart of all of the populations of all of the control mark variations on the gorgoneion boss type.  Fleischmann's pretty coin, with ☿ control mark, is the most common control mark variety.  The type I am most interested in now is the spearhead type, which I believe is from Ionia, not Salamis.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ed Snible

[dougsmit]

On what do they base the attribution to Cyprus?  I know there are collectors who specialize there and we all know there are people with more money than they know what to do with but I'd still rather have ten $50 assorted coins rather than one shield with what CNG called a 'gorngoneion'.  As far as quality goes, I tend to 'grade' such heads on a scale related to the clarity of the tongue.  This one has a better than average tongue but $500???   

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Gorn

Edited September 29, 2022 by dougsmit
add link

[Ed Snible]

2 hours ago, dougsmit said:

On what do they base the attribution to Cyprus?  I know there are collectors who specialize there and we all know there are people with more money than they know what to do with but I'd still rather have ten $50 assorted coins rather than one shield with what CNG called a 'gorngoneion'.  As far as quality goes, I tend to 'grade' such heads on a scale related to the clarity of the tongue.  This one has a better than average tongue but $500???   

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Gorn

Martin Price wrote "The bronzes 3157-62 are certainly of Cypriot provenance [cites 7 things] and the similarity of letters and monograms links them with 3152-6.  Newell ['Salamis', p. 315] sought to link the NK monogram ... with King Nikokreon and the M ... with with Nikokreon's successor Menelaus.  Attractive though this may be, in the context of several other monograms and letters, this seems unlikely, but in the case of Nikokreon the monogram is the same as his regal coinage."

I haven't read Newell on Salamis.

I believe 3157 is Ionia, not Salamis, because of a control mark on a specimen sold a few years ago.  I haven't written this up, but perhaps the next thing to read is Dinçer Savaş Lenger and Ömer Tatar, "PRICE 3158: Not Salamis but Sardes". 

[Ryro]

36 minutes ago, Ed Snible said:

Martin Price wrote "The bronzes 3157-62 are certainly of Cypriot provenance [cites 7 things] and the similarity of letters and monograms links them with 3152-6.  Newell ['Salamis', p. 315] sought to link the NK monogram ... with King Nikokreon and the M ... with with Nikokreon's successor Menelaus.  Attractive though this may be, in the context of several other monograms and letters, this seems unlikely, but in the case of Nikokreon the monogram is the same as his regal coinage."

I haven't read Newell on Salamis.

I believe 3157 is Ionia, not Salamis, because of a control mark on a specimen sold a few years ago.  I haven't written this up, but perhaps the next thing to read is Dinçer Savaş Lenger and Ömer Tatar, "PRICE 3158: Not Salamis but Sardes". 

Thank you so much, Ed! This was very illuminating. I love being able to read about the specific find spots and quantities. With this making it certain that the coins with the Gorgon boss just the Kerykeion on the reverse are from Sardes it keeps alive the type sometimes being assigned to Antigonus Monopththalmus, but not those that they were from under his son, Demitrius, in his dad's name. I believe that the assumption initially was that after Antigonus took Cyprus in 320 they began minting the type. That said, after 315 and the second Diadochi war Antigonus was in charge of all Asian land from the far east to Asia minor. 

That said, the type was minted between the dates of 323-310 BCE per Liampi and this very well done essay. During an overlap of at least two Diadochi's rule in Asia Minor. So now I will be updating my catalogue to Sardes, Eumenes-Antigonus Monopthalmus. 

As you know, I have Liampi as well as Prices coins of Alexander- Philip. But if you have any more essays articles etc on MSCs I would greatly appreciate you sharing them with me.

You never cease to surprise me! Was Mr. Fleischmann heavily into shield coins as well?

Ps, I wish you the best in your studies on the spearhead reverse type. I can only remember seeing 1 at auction and am only finding 2 on ac search! Hopefully we both can find one for our collections...and if you have more than one would be happy to buy😁