Lot 511 Mysteriously Withdrawn from CNG 121

[Al Kowsky]

Today I noticed lot 511 from CNG Feature Auction 121 was mysteriously withdrawn from the auction 🤨. The coin had been slabbed by NGC & was previously sold by Heritage on 7 January 2018 for $840.00. In the CNG description no mention was made that the coin had been slabbed or what the slab info said. CNG lot 510 is a coin of the same type dated one year earlier, & has a pre-bid of $900.00 as of today. Pictured below are lots 510 & 511 together.

https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-71VJP2/seleukid-empire-demetrios-ii-nikator-first-reign-146-138-bc-ar-tetradrachm-305mm-1644-g-1h-antioch-on-the-orontes-mint-dated-se-167-1465-bc-choice-ef

https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-71VJP4/seleukid-empire-demetrios-ii-nikator-first-reign-146-138-bc-ar-tetradrachm-30mm-1663-g-12h-antioch-on-the-orontes-mint-dated-se-168-1454-bc-ef

Pictured below is lot 511 as it appeared slabbed in the Heritage auction.

I wouldn't want either of these coins in my collection but I'm puzzled why lot 511 was pulled 😕. Would anyone care to speculate why this coin was pulled 🤔?

 

[Ryro]

I'm so glad you got pictures! One thing that grinds my gears is when I save something to my watch list and then biddr just says withdrawn...

 

Sellers remorse maybe? Or remember when all those coins were stolen AFTER auction a few years ago. Admittedly, my mind always goes to the coin being reported as fake. 

Though nothing screams fake to my amateur eyes. 

And that Apollo on the reverse is near masterful. If it didn't have a place to sleep, I'd make room for her😉

Edited September 26, 2022 by Ryro

[kirispupis]

FWIW, I've seen CNG remove lots when there was a question on the provenance/attribution - not negative but just some information that makes the coin rarer + more desirable.

The coin usually comes back up a few months later with the additional information - accompanied by a higher estimate + starting price.

[Al Kowsky]

11 hours ago, kirispupis said:

FWIW, I've seen CNG remove lots when there was a question on the provenance/attribution - not negative but just some information that makes the coin rarer + more desirable.

The coin usually comes back up a few months later with the additional information - accompanied by a higher estimate + starting price.

kiris. You make some good points 😉. I didn't think one coin was better than the other, yet there was a big difference in the estimates. Maybe the consigner of lot 511 complained about that, & it isn't clear if the coin is still slabbed or if it was "cracked out" 🤔.

[dougsmit]

I'm just making this up as I go along but I consider lot 511 a much inferior coin due to the unattractive centering and missing reverse legends.  I know the current fad is to not care about such things but I would rather have lot 510 with more wear on it than 511 as is so the estimate may have been done by someone like me rather than like you in this regard.  IF I were the consignor of lot 511, I would not in the least appreciate CNG listing my coin in the same sale of the other from a different consignor and with the difference in estimate so I would have asked CNG to remove the lot.  Again IF, I had consigned a large collection or was known to CNG as a major customer I doubt they would refuse.  Certainly our minds will go toward the fake option and, not having the CNG image to see now, I don't even know if 511 actually is the same coin as the HA slab rather than a 'cracked out' clone of it (there are too many possibilities).  What I do believe is that those of you who do not trust a dealer like CNG to do the right thing in a matter like this really should be buying your coins somewhere else.  There used to be a saying about honesty and its resemblance to pregnancy:  "Either you is or you ain't."  I have disagreed on several occasions with CNG in the decades since I started buying from Victor England and I do not know the new owner.  I have even sent them notice of a coin in their sale that I knew to be fake and they removed it.  Nobody is perfect but I have never considered CNG anything but honest.   Does anyone here disagree?  IF 511 does reappear later, I would not expect it to carry a larger estimate other than what is appropriate by 'inflation' (could be double as things have been going lately) but I do know that one way of getting a cheap price on a coin is to bid on the lesser of identical multiples in a sale.  People with big money are likely to fight over the best coin and avoid a coin like this one which I (and only I?) consider 'defective' in comparison.   Another option I would watch for is this same coin turning up in another sale (not CNG) with no mention of its track record.  Years ago, I pointed out to two different dealers that a coin they were offering as 'good' was plated.  On reexamination, both removed the lot but I assume the consignor, who had been told twice of the problem, just found another venue and sold the coin as solid.  I have not seen that coin since.  Just as with my plated example, I would be interested in hearing the whole story behind the 511 affair.  Come to think of it, I would enjoy being 'a fly on the wall' at a place like CNG and be able to observe, unnoticed, all that goes on in decisions on what to list when to list and how to list the large number of coins that pass through their doors.  

Fantasy time completed.  I return you to the facts and what you believe to be facts.  Again these days it seems many people feel entitled to their own set of 'facts'.  

[Al Kowsky]

30 minutes ago, dougsmit said:

I'm just making this up as I go along but I consider lot 511 a much inferior coin due to the unattractive centering and missing reverse legends.  I know the current fad is to not care about such things but I would rather have lot 510 with more wear on it than 511 as is so the estimate may have been done by someone like me rather than like you in this regard.  IF I were the consignor of lot 511, I would not in the least appreciate CNG listing my coin in the same sale of the other from a different consignor and with the difference in estimate so I would have asked CNG to remove the lot.  Again IF, I had consigned a large collection or was known to CNG as a major customer I doubt they would refuse.  Certainly our minds will go toward the fake option and, not having the CNG image to see now, I don't even know if 511 actually is the same coin as the HA slab rather than a 'cracked out' clone of it (there are too many possibilities).  What I do believe is that those of you who do not trust a dealer like CNG to do the right thing in a matter like this really should be buying your coins somewhere else.  There used to be a saying about honesty and its resemblance to pregnancy:  "Either you is or you ain't."  I have disagreed on several occasions with CNG in the decades since I started buying from Victor England and I do not know the new owner.  I have even sent them notice of a coin in their sale that I knew to be fake and they removed it.  Nobody is perfect but I have never considered CNG anything but honest.   Does anyone here disagree?  IF 511 does reappear later, I would not expect it to carry a larger estimate other than what is appropriate by 'inflation' (could be double as things have been going lately) but I do know that one way of getting a cheap price on a coin is to bid on the lesser of identical multiples in a sale.  People with big money are likely to fight over the best coin and avoid a coin like this one which I (and only I?) consider 'defective' in comparison.   Another option I would watch for is this same coin turning up in another sale (not CNG) with no mention of its track record.  Years ago, I pointed out to two different dealers that a coin they were offering as 'good' was plated.  On reexamination, both removed the lot but I assume the consignor, who had been told twice of the problem, just found another venue and sold the coin as solid.  I have not seen that coin since.  Just as with my plated example, I would be interested in hearing the whole story behind the 511 affair.  Come to think of it, I would enjoy being 'a fly on the wall' at a place like CNG and be able to observe, unnoticed, all that goes on in decisions on what to list when to list and how to list the large number of coins that pass through their doors.  

Fantasy time completed.  I return you to the facts and what you believe to be facts.  Again these days it seems many people feel entitled to their own set of 'facts'.  

After reading your "Fantasy" post I can assure you that lot 511 in the CNG auction & the coin that appeared on the Heritage auction slabbed are one in the same. I have the catalog for the CNG auction that pictured the exact coin & there is no mistaking it 😏. In regards to the question of authenticity, we all know that Heritage, CNG, & NGC have all made mistakes, this is one of the pitfalls of dealing in a large volume of material. None of these large institutions have a perfect record.