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Fake Septimius Severus


maridvnvm
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I am not sure what the protocol is with regards to posting an upcoming fake in an auction house and as such I will avoid naming them here.

I have notified them and provided the evidence provided below but that was over a week ago and the coin appears to still be live....

The coin in question:-

image00423.jpg?1661486747

The obverse die is a published modern fake which is combined with several impossible reverses:-

Here is it published by Ilya Prokopov - Die-engraver "Slavey Studio - Haskovo I" Published: Sofia 2003, no.145

142.jpg

Here published by Ilya Prokopov - Co-product of the studios in Dimitrovgrad and Haskovo. Published: Sofia 2005, no.88

normal_88~1.JPG

Other examples:-

normal_Septimius_Avgvsta.jpg

Also comes in "aureus" form

normal_Aureo_Septimio_Severo_CONCORDIA_A

I can provide many other examples of the die.

The reverse die is also modern and appears with many other impossible obverses

Agripp.jpg

Geta.jpg

Gord%20Afr.jpg

MarcAurel~0.jpg

 

To me this is glaringly obvious but thought it worth sharing.

Edited by maridvnvm
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18 minutes ago, maridvnvm said:

I am not sure what the protocol is with regards to posting an upcoming fake in an auction house and as such I will avoid naming them here.

I have notified them and provided the evidence provided below but that was over a week ago and the coin appears to still be live....

The coin in question:-

image00423.jpg?1661486747

The obverse die is a published modern fake which is combined with several impossible reverses:-

Here is it published by Ilya Prokopov - Die-engraver "Slavey Studio - Haskovo I" Published: Sofia 2003, no.145

142.jpg

Here published by Ilya Prokopov - Co-product of the studios in Dimitrovgrad and Haskovo. Published: Sofia 2005, no.88

normal_88~1.JPG

Other examples:-

normal_Septimius_Avgvsta.jpg

Also comes in "aureus" form

normal_Aureo_Septimio_Severo_CONCORDIA_A

I can provide many other examples of the die.

The reverse die is also modern and appears with many other impossible obverses

Agripp.jpg

Geta.jpg

Gord%20Afr.jpg

MarcAurel~0.jpg

 

To me this is glaringly obvious but thought it worth sharing.

Thanks for posting ☺️!

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  • maridvnvm changed the title to Fake Septimius Severus

It is blindingly obvious to me but it may not be so obvious to those who are less familiar with the series, possibly assuming that the style is eastern and therefore is OK. I don't know. I would hope that any auction house worth it's salt should recognise something like this. Not removing it after having this evidence provided has no excuse.

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3 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

I am not sure what the protocol is with regards to posting an upcoming fake in an auction house

Is there a protocol ? It’s a new auction house, already 5 sale in 2022. They should thank you for noticing the fake, or even hire you to check their Septimius coins; we all know you have an « Aquila » eye for them…😏

Edited by Ocatarinetabellatchitchix
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1 hour ago, maridvnvm said:

It is blindingly obvious to me but it may not be so obvious to those who are less familiar with the series, possibly assuming that the style is eastern and therefore is OK. I don't know. I would hope that any auction house worth it's salt should recognise something like this. Not removing it after having this evidence provided has no excuse.

To be fair, it looks suspect with no knowledge of the series. I think even a beginner might pick it out in a parade. Let's hope they're so new they haven't yet finessed their coin removal process.

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Yes, that one should be pretty apparent.

FWIW, I recently informed a premier auction house of a fake, they immediately acknowledged it, but took a comparable number of days to complete the withdrawl. The auction was still a month away, and I think they were just doing their process of due diligence & checks-and-balances or whatever goes on. That might be a different situation, with a bigger firm with a more complicated "chain-of-command".

No idea who this is, and it's maybe not relevant here, but I've also seen newer firms whose auctions are so riddled with fakes (and false provenances, since they clearly just cut and paste from serious firms), that there's no point even telling them. (For some, it would take hours, maybe days, to catalog them all.)

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9 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

I am not sure what the protocol is with regards to posting an upcoming fake in an auction house and as such I will avoid naming them here.

Perhaps DonnaML could give a more authoritative legal opinion (I'm not a lawyer) but I seriously doubt it would violate any libel laws to write something along the lines of "I believe the Septimius Severus denarius in [insert auction house name here]'s upcoming [insert auction description here] auction matches known forgeries.  Here's my evidence for my opinion [insert supporting evidence here]."

Personally, I think it's a bit of a disservice not to mention the auction and auction house even though a little bit of research can usually uncover the implied seller.  If I saw such a coin myself, I wouldn't hesitate to name the auction house using language similar to what I wrote above, as well as contacting the auction house directly at the same time.

If the auction were far enough in the future, I'd first contact the auction house before posting on a website but failing to get a timely response from the auction house, I'd go ahead and make the post mentioning the coin and the auction.

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20 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

Perhaps DonnaML could give a more authoritative legal opinion (I'm not a lawyer) but I seriously doubt it would violate any libel laws to write something along the lines of "I believe the Septimius Severus denarius in [insert auction house name here]'s upcoming [insert auction description here] auction matches known forgeries.  Here's my evidence for my opinion [insert supporting evidence here]."

Personally, I think it's a bit of a disservice not to mention the auction and auction house even though a little bit of research can usually uncover the implied seller.  If I saw such a coin myself, I wouldn't hesitate to name the auction house using language similar to what I wrote above, as well as contacting the auction house directly at the same time.

If the auction were far enough in the future, I'd first contact the auction house before posting on a website but failing to get a timely response from the auction house, I'd go ahead and make the post mentioning the coin and the auction.

I would think you're on shakier legal ground posting an image that isn't yours than highlighting a possible fake with evidence. Technically, just posting the coin reveals who they are anyway. Either way, they would have to sue you, which is unlikely if it is fake.

Edited by John Conduitt
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3 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I would think you're on shakier legal ground posting an image that isn't yours than highlighting a possible fake with evidence. Technically, just posting the coin reveals who they are anyway. Either way, they would have to sue you, which is unlikely if it is fake.

Also, I would think the "fair use" clause of the copyright law would apply to a non-commercial one-time use of the coin's image.

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55 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

I seriously doubt it would violate any libel laws

35 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I would think you're on shakier legal ground posting an image...Either way, they would have to sue you, which is unlikely

I think all of that's true, but I'm sure it was more a question of etiquette than law (I posted something similar recently when I found one -- and a half dozen others like it). In my case, I didn't want to share it before the auction house had a chance to take it down, thus insulting or unnecessarily embarrassing any staff or burdening them with incoming communications warning them of the fake.

I've also seen people on coin forums get very riled up over someone mentioning a coin while bidding is still open (to the point of blocking them or commenting angrily). Ever since seeing a few people get severely hammered for it on another forum or two, I've always refrained from publicly commenting on any upcoming coin auctions. (Though, on a more-or-less daily basis, I might like to do so because I've noticed a lot with a lost provenances to SNG Lockett and the Pozzi Collection, or to an important published hoard -- stuff which shouldn't be lost forever.)

So I can understand being cautious.

Personally, I've never seen anything wrong with discussing the coins in upcoming auctions online -- if you're a hobbyist, or researcher, or professional, and spend hours a day on coins, then the upcoming auctions are your daily newspapers and monthly magazines. They're the current events, so I feel it's only natural to discuss them. But I guess the theory is that if you draw attention to a coin, the bids might go up, and people get upset. So I try not to.

Edited by Curtis JJ
minor clarity, grammar
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4 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

In my case, I didn't want to share it before the auction house had a chance to take it down, thus insulting or unnecessarily embarrassing any staff or burdening them with incoming communications warning them of the fake.

As I had posted earlier, I fully agree that if there is sufficient time prior to an auction, I would certainly extend the courtesy of contacting the auction house with my suspicions about a forgery rather than immediately posting it on a public website.  But lacking a timely reply, I would likely err on the side of the collector/bidder rather than the auction house and post my supported opinion.

7 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

I've also seen people on coin forums get very riled up over someone mentioning a coin while bidding is still open

Personally, I tend to agree with this point of etiquette and wouldn't usually initiate an online discussion about an upcoming auction coin, but it wouldn't apply to a coin that I can reasonably demonstrate is highly likely to be a forgery.

 

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26 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

Personally, I tend to agree with this point of etiquette and wouldn't usually initiate an online discussion about an upcoming auction coin, but it wouldn't apply to a coin that I can reasonably demonstrate is highly likely to be a forgery.

Yes I don't think anyone would complain if you alerted them to a forgery. A good auction house won't mind either, as they will withdraw it and gain trust.

The etiquette of discussing upcoming auctions is an interesting question. I can understand someone getting upset if a coin they wanted was discussed. That would cost them money. I wouldn't like it. But it isn't about etiquette. Who decided that person should be protected, and everyone else shouldn't be alerted to a coin they might want? Or the seller should miss out on interested buyers?

I don't think people stick to it much anyway. Expensive coins seem to be particularly fair game. I collect hoard coins, and upcoming hoard auctions are regularly discussed on forums. I've never done it - perhaps out of fear of annoying someone - but I'd also be annoyed if I missed a coin or an auction because no-one would talk about it.

Edited by John Conduitt
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7 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

The etiquette of discussing upcoming auctions is an interesting question. I can understand someone getting upset if a coin they wanted was discussed. That would cost them money. I wouldn't like it. But it isn't about etiquette. Who decided that person should be protected, and everyone else shouldn't be alerted to a coin they might want? Or the seller should miss out on interested buyers?

I'm of two minds on this topic.  On the one hand, I'd love to openly discuss certain coins at upcoming auctions, especially topics such as whether a high quality coin is underestimated, its potential hammer price, who the bidders might be, etc.  

But this applies solely to those coins on which I won't be bidding.  So on the other hand, if I had even a mild interest in a coin, I'd not want a lot of public discussion prior to the auction because my thinking is that this would only increase interest and drive up the ultimate hammer price.

Not sure there's a happy medium here.

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I agree it definitely looks like a fake to me, and the Severan dynasty isn't my area of expertise. I hope that they withdraw the coin from auction.

I'm not sure the obverse portrait is a die match with the other fakes you posted but the reverse of the fourth image caught my eye as it's also used on a fake denarius of Faustina the Elder: 

Faustina I Faustina I AR denarius.   Obverse: DIVA FAUSINA  Reverse: AVGVSTA     Identified as produced by well-known Bulgarian fake dies.  Specificity: off-center and worn, instead of the usual well-centered and minty.  Sold on ebay.fr on 04.12.2005 for 14.75 EUR.  Keywords: Faustina  Bulgarian

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My page on fakes from 1998 showed a group shot of what I was told were 'Slaveis' but they were not marked as to maker.  These were most obviously bad from unreal fabric (being a bit on the thin side).  The later ones were made from the same grade silver (old Bulgarian silver coins) as the earlier ones.  That is, unless you count style and none would fool anyone who specialized in the individual series but might  The Septimius is left column of the third row.  I paid $4 each as fakes.  

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fake.html

wslgroup.jpg

To me, the 3rd century ones are hilariously bad while I might have been more easily fooled by the coins in the first row since I know nothing about them.  

The auction should be named and crucified for impersonating a dealer.

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Hard to tell for sure from the small photo, but it certainly looks like Doug's Concordia denarius matches both dies to this one

17 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

Also comes in "aureus" form

normal_Aureo_Septimio_Severo_CONCORDIA_A

1 hour ago, dougsmit said:

wslgroup.jpg

 

In groups, it's easier to tell they're fake. Depending on how convincingly any artificial aging is, and the fabric, I can easily imagine some of these being deceptive to someone who hasn't studied / collected their specific types.

For something like the Alexander III type drachm, for which styles vary tremendously from mint-to-mint and over the centuries, I could see it slipping by. (Kind of like the Seleukos Tetradrachm in another thread, which, apparently, has been sold by many different major auction firms.)

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